Influence or Manipulation? Behavioral Science & Marketing ft. Phill Agnew

[00:00:00] A lot of people might look at the things that you talk about, right? This science and they might think, okay, well, this person is trying to manipulate the consumer. Have you thought about as you're studying this, am I actually manipulating people or am I using this as a tool to help them make a decision that's going to help them in the long term?

[00:00:20] I mean, what a question. It's a tough one to answer because if we're coming at it from a marketing standpoint, if sending an ad to someone makes them change their behavior and we know it makes them change their behavior, which is all I'm trying to be, and you could argue that's manipulative. You could. The reason why I don't think it is, you know, I didn't really believe people were properly irrational until I heard this one. So there's obviously scarcity, the idea that we value scarce resources much higher. One of my favorite examples of this is a study in a supermarket in the States. And in the study, they had big signs up which said, buy

[00:00:49] soup. Then they tried to scarcity variant. And all it said was buy soup. And then a little star and underneath said something like limited to 12 cans per customer. Now this is irrational. Nobody was buying 12 cans. That one message made the soup seem scarce. The amount of soup people bought. Hey, I'm Luis. And I'm Fonzie. Welcome to Content is Profit Podcast.

[00:01:15] In here, you're going to get the insights, accountability, and drive to create consistently and increase revenue. You'll hear from top entrepreneurs, creators, and anything and everything you need to know about content. All this while having a good time. The goal of this podcast is simple. Entertain, educate, and turn your content into profit. I toot the horn because you said it right. I know. I appreciate it. Good job, Fonzie.

[00:01:42] I actually was going through my mind. My internal voice as I was reading the rest of the intro was like, you nailed it. Good job. I did an internal fist bump. Good job. All right, Fonzie, what are we talking about today? Guys, today we're learning all about the science behind great marketing. And disclaimer out there, I did take this straight out of our guest website. I should have worn it because it is lab coat. That would have been great. Oh, that would have been good. That would have been great. Yeah, that would have been a great idea. But it didn't happen.

[00:02:12] Hashtag fail. Hashtag fail. Anyways, guys, if you are enjoying this show, make sure to subscribe, follow, send us a DM. Whatever you want to do, send us a quick subscription, subscription, subscription. What's happening, Luis? It's just going downhill from here, guys. Yeah, just engage with the show. Since you didn't mention it, the handle is at Biz Bros Co. Also, if today's guest helped you move one step closer towards your goal, please don't forget to share this episode. And, of course, leave an honest review. Thank you.

[00:02:40] So we are back with another member of the Hotspot Podcast Network and Career Program family, the master of behavioral science himself. That is right. Today's guest is a marketer to the core. And, not to be creepy, but he probably knows exactly why you are making some of those debatable decisions in life. If you are trying to stay broke, then you should not listen to today's guest.

[00:03:07] Besides helping people crush their marketing efforts, his senior product marketer, Buffer, and host of one of the most practicable... Practicable. Practicable. Practicable. Is that the right word? I think so. I hope so. Practicable marketing podcast, nudge podcast. Please welcome, soon to be your favorite marketer, Phil Agnew. Let's go. Wow, wow, wow. What an intro.

[00:03:36] Hey, you two appraise at this. I was sitting there thinking, this guy sounds worth listening to. He sounds interesting. And then I realized you were talking about me. And I was like, oh, crap. Oh, no. Phil, welcome to the show. Too humble, Phil. Too humble. Okay, question. We were talking behind cameras a little bit to start the show, right? We're obviously football fans. For those listening in the States, that's soccer. Yeah. If you didn't notice, Phil has a really cool accent here. Yeah. So, you know, he's from London.

[00:04:04] And Fonzie here, he's a fan of a London team. And we legit were discussing for about 10 minutes. The best team in the world, I must say. What team? And Phil would not say. And he says that it's the best team. Fonzie says that's the best team. And we honestly don't know what's about to happen. But they're going to reveal what team that is. It's in stand-up. I am a Spanish football Barcelona fan since 1999. Nobody cares about Barcelona. So it's okay. But anyways, so who wants to go first? Phil, Phil, you go. I'll give you the honors. Yeah.

[00:04:33] So to the listeners, they said, are you a football fan? I said, yeah, I'm in London. And they said, who do you support? And I said, tongue in cheek, I support the best club in London. And then I thought they'd be like, bang, got it. Got it. There's only one. But they didn't. But so I support the best club, which as all three of us know, is Chelsea. Oh my gosh. Get out of here, Phil. Get out of here. Look at this. Best team in the world. I knew.

[00:05:03] Oh, best team in the world right here. So a little context. Fonzie. Fonzie's an Arsenal fan. Phil's a Chelsea fan. Let us know in the comments. Send us a DM. Who's your team? But I mean. North London forever. I'm just going to say this. I'm just going to say this. Barca-Chelsea, Champions League semifinal. Barca-Arsenal, Champions League final. I am sorry, guys. I think I'll win on this one. Yeah. That's fine, Phil. He can live in his own world. I was in Boston in 2012 and I saw a very different thing.

[00:05:33] Very different story there. All right. Phil, we can have one of these days a full-on debate on which one is the best football team in the world, even though we all know is Arsenal. But for those that are listening right now, you know, for the, I guess, the Chelsea fans that have stayed listening, you know, because all the Arsenal followers might have left right now, which is their loss because they're about to learn a lot, right? But Phil, why don't you share a little bit about yourself? How did you get to where you are right now?

[00:06:03] All right. Cheers, folks. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm Phil Agnew. I am a marketer by trade, been in marketing for going on eight, nine years now. And I studied marketing at university as well, which is kind of a bit odd. Like it feels like that's not like a normal thing. I always feel like I'm a bit weird when I say I'm in marketing and I studied marketing. It's like, come on, get a life. But anyway, I did that. And like disclaimer, I didn't think it was the best use of my money. It's very expensive here in the UK.

[00:06:31] And I got into marketing, got into my first marketing job. I was doing community management for a company down in Brighton. And I basically found myself thinking, this is really hard. I'm not that good at this. And I should be a lot better because I've spent 50 grand. I've done four years worth of training. I've been training on the job. Why am I not much better than this? If I had spent that amount of time learning to be a doctor, I'd be a fairly good doctor by that stage. I wouldn't be just wayful.

[00:06:58] And it wasn't until later on in my career that I discovered behavioral science and consumer psychology and just psychology in general and started to learn some of the principles behind why people make decisions and start to apply those principles to marketing that I started to find success in my role. I started to get repeatable success. I started to be like that doctor or lawyer to some extent who encounters a problem and is able to deal with it because they have a set of laws which they can rely on. That's how I felt when I sort of discovered behavioral science.

[00:07:27] So I got really addicted to behavioral science. I read everything there was to read, spent a lot of time working with behavioral scientists as well just to learn from them. And in 2019 started a show called Nudge, which is obviously named after one of the most famous behavioral science books, which by Richard Fowler and Cass Sunstein. And yeah, since then I've been running Nudge, releasing episodes every two weeks with brilliant guests, folks like Rory Sutherland, Nir Eel, Bruce Daisley, Natalie Nahai, loads of wonderful

[00:07:57] people have been on the show talking about how we make decisions. And I've spent all this time learning how we make decisions and I've been applying it to my job as a marketer. And yeah, hopefully we can dig into a little bit of that today. Dude, absolutely. Just so you know, I don't know if you noticed, but I used one of your tips in the intro, right? Oh yeah? Yeah. It said, if people will listen more, if you tell them not to listen. So I was like, Hey, if you want to stay broke, do not listen to this episode.

[00:08:23] Maybe I didn't apply correctly, but you know, I tried improvement through repetition. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot behind that tip, which I'm sure we get into. It's a gnarly one for sure. Absolutely, man. Phil, why, why you decided to publish around, you know, what, why you like and your passion that you found right in behavioral science, right? I don't think that's like, you know, you, you go to content creators and you're like, Oh my gosh, you know, I want to start like this page on, I don't know, maybe football or

[00:08:51] Chelsea, but you went to like this niche, right? Like, I'm very curious because, uh, for us, you know, when we started Contents Profit, it was not, maybe not the first choice. It was like out of like a need for the business. Like we were like Hail Mary, like this is the thing that has to work because if not in two months, we're out of business and thank God it did work. So, you know, 300 plus episodes, we're still here. Yeah, knocking wood. But you know, I'm very curious, like what, what, um, what primed that thought of starting publishing around that? And then how do you make the connection, right?

[00:09:20] With what you do in your professional life or with your business or what we do around that? Yeah. So, I mean, it's partly just, I wanted to speak to people smarter than me and having a podcast is a great way to do that when I started up. So that was a big part of it. Um, a good example that I'm reading a book at the moment called the art of thinking clearly. And it's a book about all these behavioral biases. And there's one great example he gives, the author gives of sort of survivorship bias, which is a problem that we have in business.

[00:09:45] And this is this example of, I think it's originally from Taleb and, um, the philosopher Taliban. It's this example where if you get 50,000 monkeys and get them to bet on whether the stock market will grow or decrease over a sort of week period, um, half of them will get it right. You'll get 25,000 monkeys to get it right. If you repeat that 20 times or however many times, you will eventually end up with a group

[00:10:12] of five monkeys or 20 monkeys who have consistently predicted the stock market to be correct time after time, after time, after time, after time, after again. And people would be saying, these monkeys are geniuses. They are this, it's unbelievable. We should follow every single, everything this monkey tells us we should follow it. Um, and it sounds ridiculous because I'm using the example of monkeys, but that is the example. If you just say business people rather than monkeys, like we follow very successful business

[00:10:40] people because they've had success without acknowledging that really success in more, most cases is, is, is heavily down to luck, heavily down to fluke and is rarely down to natural talent. I mean, just look at the incredible, incredibly disproportionate number of white male people in the business world compared to, you know, the major, uh, races, religions, genders in the world. It's completely unjust. And one of the reasons why I was so attracted to behavior science is I was really bored

[00:11:07] and really tired of marketing BS, really just fed up of just reading the same old advice by the same old dudes, you know, this classic survivorship bias of you only go to a talk at a conference, if it's got Facebook or Google or Apple, you know, as one of the speakers and we're all just, we're all learning stuff, which is nothing more than gut instinct and experience and stories. And I wanted to learn stuff that had been tested science. I wanted to learn stuff that had repeatable results. I wanted to start to apply things to my work.

[00:11:37] I knew people had actually tried themselves and, and, and not tried themselves on a one to one level, but you know, at a much larger level and stuff that I could apply. So that's really why I was attracted to behavior science. That's really why I wanted to make a podcast about it and why I feel so strongly about it today because I feel like marketing, a lot of marketing is full, you know, a bit of marketing BS. There's way too much of it in our field and way too much of it in the business field. And I'm on my little crusade to try and say, no, let's test things. Let's apply science and let's go from there. What do you call marketing BS?

[00:12:07] I'm very curious. What do I call marketing BS? Yeah. Or what is marketing BS? Not like the acronym. No, no, no. We know what the acronym stands for. Well, I mean, I mean, translation marketing bullshit, right? Like it's fine. But like, I'm, I'm curious, like what, what, what is it? Right. Because, you know, we came from this world of like direct response marketers and like, uh, you know, the, the click funnel world. And, you know, we've been like levitating out of that. Like we use a tool for some things, but it's crazy.

[00:12:33] And you, you start learning from these people that are very loud or like you consume this content from people that are very, very loud. But at the same time, they do use, I'm sure a lot of these principles that you talk about right to influence people on and i'm gonna say help them make a decision so yeah i'm same curious like what do you consider bs marketing yeah so i mean i'm not gonna throw people under the bus because i mean i should i should have we can we can throw funds under the bus that's fine

[00:13:03] like so marketing bs like the most successful business book of probably this year will be some sort of autobiography it will be some sort of rich dude who's got been very successful writes about their success and says look here's all these wonderful things i write about you know here's here's my story or it's somebody who's actually making a living selling books and is is only got the goal of selling more books and and that's their story yeah that's what i'd

[00:13:31] classify as marketing bs maybe it's easier to say like what do i not think is bs and i would point out to like books like this this is robert cialdini's influence robert cialdini's a social scientist at arizona university he does all his research applies himself himself tests it the stuff in there and the stuff in his new book that i wouldn't 100 agree with but like he's testing it and he's he's working it and people can build on it and then you've got folks like richard shotten who wrote the choice factory he's not a scientist he's just a marketer who is

[00:14:00] applying these principles running his own tests and then sharing those results to the world you know that's stuff you can get behind that's stuff you can learn about and that's what i mean like i want to read books which don't start with i was born in washington dc 1960 or whatever i don't know why they've got that accent either but i don't want to read books where it's like you know here's my life story if you wake up at 6 a.m do yoga take a cold shower you'll be as successful as me i want to i

[00:14:28] want to read a book where it's like here is this known bias that we have known about for 100 years here's me applying it to an ad here's the results i got i'm not saying you should do it but test it because it might work for you that's what i want to read and i think that's different between behavioral science and some of the marketing bs that's about so lots of i'm hearing data driven uh you know marketing right things that again have been tested multiple times there's numbers behind it in the sense of like hey we tested this with a certain amount of population these are the

[00:14:58] results it's a little bit it sounds like a little bit more tangible in a way maybe yeah maybe not data driven maybe peer-reviewed is what you'd classify because i think data driven it can mean anything it can just mean you know oh we do a little test ourselves yeah and you can lean on the sciences lean on professionals and see yeah and you can frame data right like however like the angle that you really want to use it for right like and and we've talked about this on the show um you know that that great line we've discussed this on on titles and headlines and things right and

[00:15:24] fancy motor on the side of like you know louis you're you're you know you're crossing that line i'm like well no i'm really at the edge of that great line right i'm like uh but i i get it right because we've been involved and it's and it's crazy because there might be a lot of people listening to to the show today that are in that where we were there and until we didn't see like something from outside and we didn't educate ourselves or we continue to have this conversation through podcasts for example right like we're like okay this is opening our world right after

[00:15:50] 300 i'm gonna i'm gonna throw this out there i still love direct response marketing i think it's absolutely amazing and actually he didn't say bullshit marketing was i know i know but but i know i agree but click funnels is is highly highly linked to direct response marketing and they don't have a really good you know i'm not like putting up and down anybody here but you know they they have a lot of haters right but what i'm gonna say here is and going back to i have i have like two

[00:16:20] questions so i gotta pick which one i'm gonna ask first and i guess the first one right since we're talking about gray lines and all this thing is a lot of people might look at the things that you talk about right this this a science and they might think okay well this person is trying to manipulate the consumer right in a way uh that's not how i think i just want to put it out there but i think it is a it's a serious concern right that is something that we've heard a lot in this other market

[00:16:48] right it's like oh man all these guys do is is is very manipulative they're just trying to get people to spend their money x y and z so i'm curious how do you like have you ever approached that in a sense right have you thought about about as you're studying this am i actually manipulating people or am i using this as a tool to help them make a decision a decision that's gonna help them in the long term yeah i mean what a question it's a tough one to answer because if we're coming at it from a

[00:17:18] marketing standpoint well all marketing is manipulative if if if if sending an ad to someone makes them change their behavior and we know it makes them change their behavior which is all i'm trying to do and you could argue that's manipulative you could the reason why i don't think it is or the reason why you know it may well be i've got a lot there's a lot wrong with advertising at the moment there's a lot i hate about it you know i'm a marketer with ad block on everything um

[00:17:48] but like the the point if we even remove it out of that like let's let's just go down to there's a great example of google running an experiment in their cafeterias and google wanted to get more people to eat healthy food why because in general we all want to eat healthier if our staff eat healthier they get sick less they stay alive for longer they're fitter they you know there's all the benefits you get from that so they wanted people to eat healthier so they did some nudges to change

[00:18:14] perception they they reframed things they basically put stuff like all of the fruit and veg at eye level they put all of the fizzy soft drinks behind an opaque glass and they put all of the water behind a transparent glass they put the sweets slightly out of arm's reach they made the plate slightly smaller made all these little tweaks all these nudges lo and behold people were consuming far less calories they were eating far more healthily once they made this change and that once they realized this

[00:18:41] they then have this dilemma of like oh crap do is this are we manipulating people should we do this we don't know if we should should we should do this and there's a real debate internally of like oh we're manipulating people to eat healthier maybe we should put it back to the old way but then think about the old way that is manipulating people as well it is because you've put the chocolate at eye level you've put the fizzy drinks in a transparent container you've put the water behind

[00:19:08] opaque glass like you're you're manipulating people in the same way and i think what you need to do is you need to go in with a mindset of who am i trying to help um how am i trying to help them how am i trying to maybe influence them but more importantly if i was being influenced in the same way so if this was happening to me would i agree with it like is it is it in line with my values if i went to google i'd say yeah keep it keep it that way keep letting me try to be healthier i can make decisions on my own

[00:19:36] keep it that way and if i'm as a marketer if i see advertising that i think works i think clearly gets across a point that encourages me to do something i'm far more like i i think that's better personally i would love a world where there are 10 ads not 10 000 but they're just really effective i'd love to see no more perfume ads wouldn't that be great just nonsense every time

[00:20:04] i see those i'm like who gets paid for this thing like it they make no sense whatsoever exactly and we're talking one more thing is we're talking about advertising here i'm not an advertiser i'm a marketer so actually what i'm doing is helping brands sell their products to people who usually want to buy the products on a website and so i'm applying this stuff to help them do the thing that they want to do anyway which is which is you know what what part of this product do i want how can i try it yeah i think so that's that's my angle i find this so interesting how this tiny

[00:20:34] little changes right not just like can cause such a big change right i mean this example that that you just shared i thought was impressive right every freaking cafeteria and every school and everywhere here should be doing that stuff right um but then there's probably marketing from the company that is selling the trash food right so they can get their stuff in front of the other stuff and i i think

[00:20:59] that's that's part of the the challenge in today's world and why so many people are now conscious about marketing and now calling it manipulative and all these things is i mean the the access to information right and now you get slammed with ads and just any other sort of marketing and so people are now so aware that when they see somebody that is potentially doing something a little bit more

[00:21:23] direct right uh they might get on a on a defensive side like oh why are you trying to do this why are you trying to make me make a a decision right now right and i think that that's part of it why people are considering in a way manipulative and there's a button like if you study behavior science you'll understand that a hell of a lot better because what that is is that's called reactants so what's happening there there's studies where when you do this with children if you've got kids you'll be able to do this yourself you bring a child into a room this is studies have proved this

[00:21:50] and you put two toys in the room one toy is right in front of them and one is behind a glass barrier and you ask which toy do you want to play with 100 of the time it'll be the toy behind the glass barrier you can then swap the toys at a later date try it again doesn't matter what the toy is you want the thing that you can't have and part of that is because you want to push back at the establishment so you want to say no i don't want to i don't want to be you know i want the freedom of choice i want to be able to choose what i want to choose if you understand reactants if you

[00:22:18] understand that people react that way you can actually build that into your marketing so a good example in the uk is we have this um movement called veganuary which every january tries to get people to consume more more vegan meals to build you know to make a more sustainable planet a worthy cause in my in my mind now in the past they've done marketing which actually causes reactants stuff like saying and beyond meat have done this as well in the past saying like don't be a loser don't eat meat or like

[00:22:47] don't you know don't like basically essentially saying that if you eat meat you're a loser yeah well whereas you know behavioral scientists look at that straight away and say don't say that definitely don't say that because all you're going to do is cause reactants all you're going to do is make people be um defensive what you should try and do is make the behavior seem really commonplace so say something along the lines of in the past five years three times as many people have tried meat-free products maybe it's time to try yours today or something along those lines so

[00:23:13] there's i think that's where i come from with it of like you know if you start to understand the principles behind people make behind how people make decisions yeah you'll be able to factor all this stuff in and and make marketing that actually works i i love this and you know when you were explaining that before reactants there's two stories that came to mind uh uh i love a podcast uh business wars right and i there was a series there about diamonds and how you know i we come

[00:23:42] from venezuela are just a little background like our parents like never wore like their marriage rings or like they were never big into that stuff and then when we come here to the states when it was time for me to propose i'm very lucky because katie was like yeah whatever you know but the ring and i was like what is this thing with the rings and you have to spend like two and a half like months of your salary to do this ring and it's like everybody's talking about the engagement ring right and uh you know i was very lucky that you know katie was that you know was not that girl but she still got

[00:24:08] a ring and i'm like but like why like isn't this a commitment between two people like it's just very weird it was just very weird to me and then i hear this story and it was all women listening to this are punching her right now they're like what are you talking about i'm not gonna send this podcast to my boyfriend right now i don't care i'll send it to them uh but the beers family right which control the diamonds and the and the whole market when they came to the states they they established as a marketing campaign that to sell the the rings to be able to sell the rings

[00:24:37] they hired these hollywood studios and the movies and all these movies around that time was they were framed to actually sell these diamonds and they actually decided the two and a half like salaries price point in an office and now this became this thing and now this obviously exploded and you know i hear that story i'm like how many other things like we believe from you know when we were born or things that our parents maybe uh pass on to us or these companies pass on to us i'm like how much

[00:25:04] like of this is is marketing right breakfast the way that americans do breakfast right it's a lot of it the cereal all this thing that's fast-paced um um nutrition that a lot of people might be having negative reactions to right and you you start to think and question really like what is the ethics of marketing and what are these things and then there's a book uh called hate inc not to get political but i just want to mention it and it's the story of media here in the states on why they

[00:25:31] transition into a very polarizing and how like things are like really messed up in media today mainstream media and i thought it was super interesting because they talk about those same things and they're like okay they really learn how humans behave right and they they exploited that for profits and you're like wow and again everybody has their point of view but i think it's like pretty pretty pretty awesome point of view to like explore that route and we thought you were gonna say pretty awesome to exploit

[00:26:00] definitely definitely not fancy off the mark uh but you know we come from a we come from a socialist country communist country uh with a dictatorship right and and we saw the whole propaganda we saw the whole thing we saw like that they control people in in different different aspects in different uh environments right and it was really hard that's why we're here so uh it just really it's home and i and i and i'm loving this topic and i diving deep into into all this i want to

[00:26:26] take a quick thought here to that story about the diamonds right if you look at it this is oversimplifying the whole story but okay they had the diamonds they placed them in the eyes of you know everybody that was watching movies you know they put it in the in the rings of the movie stars and i feel like that speaks to status do you want to be like this famous person right do you want to have this romantic story and people are like yes of course and eventually everybody started getting

[00:26:55] into that and this is something that we heard a long time ago that a lot of people make decisions based on status right improving their status and i'm curious right like how much and i'm not looking for like a clear number but how much of this behavioral science goes around status and improving somebody's status and actually how effective it is yeah we care an awful lot about how people think

[00:27:21] about us so our behavior changes dramatically when we ref when we're thinking not about ourselves as an individual but thinking about how others are perceiving us so if you want to get people to conserve more energy this is a study done by opower i think in the uk they sent two groups of people their energy bill one group of people just said the energy bill try and reduce your energy consumption it's good for the environment the other said honestly like this they weren't being disingenuous this

[00:27:49] is true for the people who were in this case they said oh by the way you're using more energy than your neighbors um you might want to reduce when people read that they dramatically reduced their energy consumptions up to three years after they received that one letter that's how powerful that is you know just thinking of yourself and compared to others changes your behavior and i think the status one you know you're talking about debers you're talking about how they got movie stars to wear the rings for me that's that's halo effect so halo effect is this is this is a hundred year old principle so this is not a

[00:28:18] new thing it was discovered 100 years ago and it's been present not just in humans but in the species for eons you know gorillas have the halo effect where we basically what you do is you see a individual that has one very positive trait that could be that they are a ceo or that they are a movie star or that they are a rock star or that they have to be attractive or tall and you assume that they have

[00:28:44] a number of other traits that make them a positive person you assume that you you sort of embrace some positivity which is why george clooney who as far as i know knows nothing about coffee is the number one coffee salesman in the world and not the world's best barista you know it's why um i don't know all these examples you know why daniel craig sells watches when you know he's just an actor and the halo effect is more interesting it's way more interesting than just looking at how it's used

[00:29:12] in advertising because it affects us in all of our day to day so there's this amazing study in dutch supermarkets and these two people sat outside a dutch supermarket which had one door which you had to open and and you know it was a small door so you'd often open it and let people free and they and they measured how many people let others free and what they were looking to see is if there was some sort of correlation or causation between the height of people and whether they were let through or not

[00:29:38] and what they found is taller people just because of their height were significantly more likely to have the door holed open for them by a smaller person we have this bias towards taller people same goes for beauty there's this famous studies which have found that people who are attractive genuinely get an increase in pay i think for males and women it's an increase of around 600 pounds or dollars per per year which is the equivalent to some of the racial differences you know so

[00:30:04] so beauty is a big one as well you've got you've got heaps of other stuff there's this amazing study by i think it's jayowitz which looked at jaywalking in the lefkowitz i should say which looked at jaywalking in the states and he got his researchers to jaywalk across roads in the states and see how many people would follow him or see how many people would follow the researchers when people are wearing denims and a t-shirt very few people follow them when people are wearing a suit suddenly three times

[00:30:31] more people following we literally follow suits not just in a business sense in a general sense illegally across the road so halo effect affects us in all sorts of ways and just before we finish i'll leave you my number one favorite example of halo effect yeah yeah so in the uk back in the 80s cold war was raging there was a genuine threat that nuclear bombs would be firing off between the us and russia and that the uk would be stuck in the middle of it so in the uk the government issued a bunch

[00:30:59] of video preparation videos to try and get people to prepare for nuclear war these are videos which told you what to do where to go how to act if nuclear war strikes who would you expect them to get to face these videos you'd probably think prime minister you know head of the army some sort of very trusted

[00:31:20] person now they chose england footballer and geordie kevin keegan keegan keegan went on to be england manager he was the face of these campaigns this footballer it was like in his 30s at the time had absolutely no experience with nuclear war nothing like that and yet people listen to this message why because he is a good footballer and when somebody has a good skill we assumed them to have other good skills were more likely to take their advice so the halo effect is incredible and it's

[00:31:48] really something to be wary of you know as an individual i think do i really like working here because i like the people or do i like working here because i think you know i'm just something about the ceo is making me think yeah i should stick around wait before you share your comment here i'm first i'm amazed at all the stories that you know for each of the topics obviously you are a master of your craft man so congrats on that um i do want to speak eventually it doesn't have to be in

[00:32:18] this conversation today on how do you you do your research and how you keep memorize all those stories because i find that absolutely amazing and um i mean the the other thing is i mean this whole thing is well in my mind i just want to say i understand now why i was not successful at the united state bars when i came to college here in the state i'm five seven people here are tall 20 like it's like now it makes a lot of sense so you know that's why my wife is canadian like she

[00:32:45] you know she wasn't adhering to people were opening the door for the states you know so i that makes a lot of sense so i feel like this is so good here's my the question that i have is i feel you have this level of awareness now on how you know people can again influence decisions all over the place and i think that that gets to be fun to an extent because you now see every sort of marketing and

[00:33:12] you're like oh they could do this better or or wow that is great because of this or you see people taking action and you're like okay they're doing it because x y and z reason but i'm extremely curious on how all this knowledge all this awareness right has affected your life personally right like when you are at the end of the the marketing right being marketed and you feel yourself you know persuaded to take action like do you look at yourself in a way and stop yourself reflect i'm so curious

[00:33:42] yeah it's a good question so by the way for those listening uh go watch the video because there's a bunch of question marks around our faces and our heads right now because like this is like just like priming all these questions down like we're gonna we've seen the world with different eyes which is amazing yeah yeah that's a good question and i think like you know i don't i'm definitely no expert and i think daniel kahneman noble prize winner behavioral scientist author of thinking fast and slow he was

[00:34:08] asked this he said oh you know you must be like a superpower you must act so differently so no i literally don't act differently at all like it does you cannot there are two modes of thinking in the brain there is system one and system two system one is fast automatic unconscious makes 98 of our decisions and you can try to train that and like you can but you it's so quick that you rarely catch onto it that said you do occasionally pick up on it so like i was in the cafe i was in i work often from

[00:34:37] a local coffee shop and i was in there today and there's this there's this great um technique sales person technique that people use called the door in the face technique which is where you ask for something fairly big and people say no and then you follow up with something small so cialdini talks about this in his book persuasion he said he would go up to people and say in one set of scenarios will

[00:35:01] you chaperone these kids who are i think also juvenile and in prison in a juvenile prison it's like basically they're kids you wouldn't want to chaperone around the zoo for your whole day on sunday he says will you do this basically no one says yes it's actually a surprising amount of people do say yes it's not zero percent but basically no one says yes in the second scenario he uses this foot for a door in the face technique where he asks for something much bigger so it's a bit of

[00:35:28] anchoring but it's also this sort of dual question approach where he says will you um give up be mentor these children we're looking for people to mentor these children for like a five-year course over the period of five years we would love someone to mentor these children give an hour of your time each week obviously no barely anyone said no to that i think some people did weirdly but barely anyone said no yeah and then he follows up with the the smaller ask and says well you know okay if you can't do that no worries by the way we're looking to people to chaperone on

[00:35:54] sunday a much less i think three times as many people said yes to that request versus the first one and so you learn about this stuff i learn about this stuff and then i'm at i'm at a coffee shop earlier today because there's this other example of this which was again done by waitresses and it showed how you could apply this to business waitress goes up to people and says do you want a dessert and if she leaves at three minutes per saint between saying do you want a dessert and them saying no and then says do you want tea and coffee no one will want tea and coffee

[00:36:20] if he or she says do you want a dessert and then ask and if people say no asks immediately okay but do you want tea and coffee they're much more likely to say yes so there's this sort of intimacy is immediate like okay say no to one but get them say yes to the other and i just noticed it at the coffee shop it's like that's so funny like he he like the guy he came in and he said um so what well you know what can i get you today would you like to try one of our like really nice

[00:36:46] sandwiches that we put together it's quite expensive the person said no okay no worries what about this lovely iced coffee we've got today which is again more expensive than what people would normally have and got the person to say yes like that oh yeah okay yeah i'll try the coffee i'll try this um iced latte and i was sitting there like that was it thinking thinking that guy look they've been done and then i looked down at what i was drinking it was like oh man they got me too oh well they did that to you fancy the other day when you brought

[00:37:15] the the breakfast uh the perfect tacos and then you come back you come home with a tray of coffee and juice and you're like bro i just i just asked you for a breakfast taco yeah they upsold me the whole store um yeah that that is so cool that that reminds me a little bit of the price anchoring type of deal right where they go on on a person this is how we've experienced it we're in a live

[00:37:38] event that they're selling from stage and you know they drop you know this campaign or this system has you know uh has been responsible for a million dollars in profits so that is the first number that people get in their head right and they use now that as a reference for whatever number that comes after so if they would be selling that system for i don't know 1.5 million dollars people will be like whoa that is extremely expensive but then they go like hey you can have all this for

[00:38:07] 47 dollars for yeah you know for 20 grand and people are like whoa so cheap right and there's a lot more build up in there and i think that i think that technique has been raped like many times and like where you know it's crazy you go to these webinars right it's like hey this the full value of this is 20 000 but you can have it today at 27 right and you're like that what's that actually make make sense right like is that the real value and i think like bullshit marketing we go back to

[00:38:35] that right there's a lot of people right now trying to trying to use these like techniques but people are smarter today right they they they catch on to it and then they're more aware they they i feel like now or maybe this is just my perception because we just live so deep in that world that we just see offers all the time on of this type right um that we are extremely aware of it but yeah i do agree that to an extent people people are um by being more aware i don't know what is the right word to use

[00:39:05] but they're a little bit more immune to some of those tactics do you think do you think that do you think like people are building some you know i'm doing air quotes in here immunity to some of these behavioral nudges yeah potentially potentially i think unfortunately so many of our decisions are made by this quick snap system one part of our brain that we we think we're immune but we're often not and there's been lots of studies in um like criminal cases um fictional criminal cases which actual

[00:39:34] lawyers will take part in where the person who is is suing starts with a range of differences once one scenario they're suing for 20 grand one scenario they're suing for 50 one scenario they're suing for a million one scenario they're suing for 100 million and each scenario is just i've spilled a bit of coffee on my hand and it's too hot for example and it doesn't matter what the anchor is how ridiculous it is in the 100 million scenario they always get more money um so like there's these you know there's these weird examples where anchoring still has an effect even if it's ridiculous

[00:40:02] amount yeah no absolutely and like i would always say there's one company that probably could charge anything they want in the world and people would pay for it and yet use anchoring consistently and i think it shows that it works and that's that's apple what do you believe yeah was a master of anchoring would always if you watch the introduction my favorite is of of the ipad he's standing on stage saying um because there's been a lot of debate in the lead up to that about how much it would cost

[00:40:32] now most people said it should cost no more than 250 because what the hell are you going to use an ipad i've got a phone and i've got a laptop one person said it might cost 999 because it's quite advanced technology and on stage steve jobs sandy has just done a presentation presses a button 999 dollar symbol appears behind him and he says some of you have said it will cost this much which makes a lot of sense this is a huge development there's been a lot of work put into it it's a massive innovation

[00:40:58] in the field and he presses a button but we've managed to get the price right down and then the 999 literally shatters into a million pieces and goes to 499 we've managed to get it down to 499 and the journalists in the room are like we've been cheering that's amazing and they're the exact same journalists who earlier that week were saying it shouldn't cost more than 250 dollars but just with a simple anchor yeah but you know it influences people that said i think the financial like the

[00:41:28] pricing anchors everyone knows them now it's all over years i think there's more interesting ways to use like if you the de beers example is a great one you shared it earlier you know saying two and a half month worth of your salary to is how much engagement ring should cost is is a much more interesting use of anchoring than just you know 999 reduced to 499 i i love the the apple because i experienced something very similar um i just got the the new crazy headphones that apple has and you know that

[00:41:55] was a big decision i was like oh my gosh okay i'm making the investment 500 bucks you know this pair of headphones and hashtag business expense but uh but like the decision it was funny because then we got these amazing headphones from hotspot right their beats are amazingly great quality and uh the price is a little bit lower and i'm like oh my gosh let me watch this video comparing both of them and there was like this one guy that was explaining that you go to the apple store and you see both headphones right there right because be like apple sells beats right you see the 500 something and then

[00:42:24] the other one and you're like okay quality might be similar maybe like different preferences but the main difference is not it's not much and the guy's like well maybe apple released those those maybe they're marginally better but the price is so high so maybe they're selling more beats because people go to the store they see both they see you know the the main apple headphones the uh max whatever airport max and they're like oh my gosh 500 bucks but then we have the beats 300 250 i might get

[00:42:51] those because you know they still do the job right so i'm very curious maybe and if somebody listening has that data that will be very interesting to to to see did they actually saw more beats after they released a more expensive version of the headphones right um so in a sense it'd be like okay how do we present you know price anchoring between products right and and we've debated this inside of our own programs right we have the we have a service we have a we just released a done with you with people that we've been enjoying thoroughly to to do it and we're like okay how do we actually price this thing

[00:43:21] right is it it's not time-based right it's value-based and the price conversation has been present very present in our inside of our business for the last two years right so um have you found some some research or or some information on like to help people price their things right a lot of people that listen to the show they might be selling a service right they might be selling something like what are some practical tips that we can use maybe to to target or uh or to to to take advantage when

[00:43:47] it comes to pricing ethically right number one tip is to stop pricing based on on pure cost and i know that might sound manipulative or it might sound like an odd thing to say but well one you don't i guarantee you don't you do not buy a product which is priced based on cost unless you're down at your local grocery store like the the vast majority of things you buy i mean there was a thread about

[00:44:11] mcdonald's the other day the cost of a hamburger to actually produce is is literally cents you're paying for a brand you're definitely not paying for nutrition um so that's the number one tip you just when you're talking earlier i'm thinking about price decoys so apple i don't know if they've done this with your headphones because i think they want people to buy them but i think it's a really good example of have they created a product that they don't want to sell they just want to use it

[00:44:38] to anchor people onto another product and i know they've done this before because if you go and look at um i used to have an apple watch and i always wanted to buy a new band because i didn't like the band that i had and if you go and look at new bands on that page they have like ridiculously priced so expensive i think they're like almani brands or like gucci brands which are a thousand more than the actual watch itself and there's no way i mean they sell it to like maybe 0.001

[00:45:06] they're still gonna be a percentage they don't make money on it all it does is make a 50 pound band which is a ridiculous amount of money for a bit of plastic a 50 pound band look like really good value it's all it's there for and the science behind this comes from a brilliant book by dan arieli which is called um uh which is called predictably irrational and in the book he gives this example and this is way back of the economist so the economist is a magazine subscription you know you can subscribe

[00:45:35] to the economist and he couldn't he was reading it one day and he couldn't believe what they had in there because it said it was three options to subscribe to the economist one option the top option was um um web only and also yeah web only and it cost like 150 quid and then the bottom option was print only and it cost 79 quid quid is is dollars in the currency um and then he had him he had a middle

[00:46:05] one 79 150 and then he had a middle one which was um web and print for 120 he was like why would anybody who would be buying the web only version for 150 when you get that for 120 and you get both because you get the web and the print one for 120 and so he did this test he brought it to his students and showed half of the students the version that i've just talked to you through and then the other

[00:46:32] half a version with that middle option removed so no longer can you get you have to either pick between the two and what he found was the average amount people spent was drastically higher when you had this decoy when you had this decoy product that nobody would buy it just massively what it made everybody think oh i need both web and print because it's such a good deal versus when you had to choose between the two and so lots of companies use these decoys to anchor people to a higher price i think the

[00:46:59] example of apple is a very good one the signature range in mcdonald's is another good one of like a more expensive version which is not particularly sold a lot of but but people try and buy it and there are all sorts of examples and i think as a as a marketer you know i wouldn't necessarily go out and say look this is going to revolutionize your marketing go stick her anchor on everything but when you're thinking about pricing you need to bear these things in mind because people will never view

[00:47:25] your price rationally they will never view your price rationally so you need to approach it with the understanding that there will be there will be irrational ways that i'll look at it and just being aware of that can help you price better and to increase your margins and maybe to get what your products actually worth yeah absolutely phil man i hope you are really appreciated a buffer i'm sure they do i'm sure they appreciate you so much but you are a well of knowledge my friend and it's it's

[00:47:54] amazing um you know i can't believe we're almost at the hour i'm like what yeah and just i want to kind of like frame these for for the listener right now is all these things that we've talked today personally and correct me if i'm wrong i want to hear your opinion too but i feel like all of these things can be used and applied to your content writing your message while you're talking sharing information right um even i think even the halo effect right you can use it

[00:48:21] uh when you're about to start talking about a certain topic just refer to a very specific person with a very high status right as your example and then you are putting the the halo halo effect into effect um so man this has been absolutely amazing and i know we're getting here towards the end but i am so curious on which one is your favorite nudge and which one has been the one that you've used the most

[00:48:51] throughout your career um use the most yeah it's difficult to call that i've got a favorite though i've got an easy favorite just because you know i didn't really believe people were properly irrational until i heard this one so there's obviously scarcity the idea that we value scarce resources much higher yeah the day that concord announced that they would stop flying between new york and london in like two years time the price of the tickets went through the roof because it suddenly became a scarce resource we all know this and this isn't irrational in a ways because back in our when we

[00:49:21] were cavemen this was a really smart thing to do to go after scarce resources but one of my favorite examples of this is a is a study in a supermarket in the states and in the study they had big signs up which said buy soup and people went out and bought i think it was two and a half two and a half cans of soup and it's like well done marketing works he said buy people buy soup then they tried a scarcity variant and all it said was buy soup and then a little star and underneath said something like

[00:49:49] limited to 12 cans per customer now this is irrational nobody was buying 12 cans of soup prior to it there was not a single person who went away with like 20 cans of soup nobody bought 12 cans of soup but that one message made the soup seem scarce the amount of soup people bought it's like three and a half cans maybe even four cans if i remember rightly once they saw that message so it's just i love that example because i think it you know we always we think of ourselves as rational human beings and in

[00:50:17] a major part we are but so much of our life is spent being a bit irrational yeah and as marketers we're in the we're in the business of making people change their decisions so the best thing you can do as a marketer is understand how those decisions are made in the first place and try and apply those findings to your work i i felt this example so deeply right like in the last two years obviously he just came from buying a bunch of soup so i mean the last two years like you probably heard the craziness about toilet paper in the united states when all this like covid thing started right like

[00:50:47] people we literally went to walmart to see people fight for toilet paper like people were just like and it was crazy but also there's like the supermarket aldi and uh they were the same thing limiting the tuna cans and it was crazy because as you're explaining this thing and they're like okay you know only two cans per person right and i'm like i call my wife i'm like where are you can you drive out aldi because i need to buy four cans of of tuna right which in the past i would have bought just two and then the

[00:51:13] next day i would have bought next right and it's uh it hits home because like it happens every single day so you know i i want to encourage uh if you're listening keep your eyes open for these opportunities these things right because those are things that you can implement ethically right in your business or your message or your content on how to create how to frame things i put a note in here um uh to to buy more soup to buy more soup yeah uh do you encourage encourage the people to like

[00:51:41] to not listen to the podcast right you know i think this is a great intro and we can test it right and see what's up and and uh so there's a key takeaway and i might just be making this up in my mind but i find it interesting how there's all these these tools right all these different nudges and there are lots of very different creative ways of applying all of these right um for example we talk

[00:52:07] about the the price anchoring that you know that hey you get this and this is the value and this and this is the value that is overused right and now people see it and they can catch up to it but again i'm sure you can find a very different way of price anchoring your product right um and have the same effect the scarcity right usually is we only accept five people what if instead of saying that we

[00:52:33] only accept five people you say limited to only doing it once you can only do this thing one time this cohort and that's it so you better take advantage of it right i feel like that's a sense of scarcity because people's like oh man they must have people asking to come in multiple times in a sense or at the same time it's so good that they just yeah they just want to try it again whatever

[00:52:59] um so that i find that super interesting because sometimes i feel like i'm just seeing the same thing over and over again but by knowing those laws and principles that you mentioned at the very beginning you have the foundation to then maybe think a little bit more creatively in how you apply this inside of your business and that is extremely powerful and foundation is a good word i think

[00:53:24] about it like architecture if you're building a building if you didn't understand how architecture works would every single one of us would be living in a mud hut and it would look the same there are foundational things you have to know about buildings about how deep you have to have to dig how how much weight you can things can hold how much structure what materials work for me that is like behavior science to marketing you need the foundations you need to learn that and then you can

[00:53:50] get creative look how many wonderful buildings there are architecture is extremely varied but only because you have that same foundational understanding that you can become create and build these other things otherwise we'd all be we'd all be in mud huts so i think that's like that's why i think applying behavior science is so valuable gives you that foundation to build on yeah so you're doing so much good for the marketing world my friend uh all the marketers appreciate it phil uh i'm next what is your favorite

[00:54:17] book out of all this because you mentioned so many resources so many books and we we wrote them down so we make sure we refer to them in the in the notes but i'm yeah it's interesting you must have you but you must have a favorite because if you've listened like i'm just going to give a book i've read recently which i really like because they're definitely the ones i've referenced so far go and read but if you're new to this if you're interested in it you want a slightly different version this book

[00:54:42] here is called the biggest bluff this is a sort of paper journalist but knows a lot about psychology in behavior science and she decided she was going to study how people make decisions and not apply it to marketing but apply it to becoming a poker player and this is her story of how she applied all these behavior science principles to becoming a poker player and like eventually becoming i won't ruin it but very very successful it's still that spoiler alert you know i just just keep it

[00:55:13] she does journalism now but only as a hobby wow that's a good go check out the biggest bluff oh that sounds so much fun it sounds like potentially they can make a movie out of out of that book in there yeah um and then this is i'm like last question five questions ago he did take the you know we got time like pretty okay like yeah i took it too hard well i'm just curious on how do you remember like do you have a database how do you remember all these stories as soon as you read

[00:55:42] them do you immediately share them or do you have a naturally good memory i've spent i mean i i do you know i talk about them a lot i'm always talking about them on the show um so there's i don't think i've got a naturally good memory at all so i think it's just that there is there's hope there's hope then when i'm reading a book because often i mean reading a book is difficult because you want to just sit there and enjoy it but at the same time you want to be able to to remember a few things

[00:56:08] so i use an app called highlighted where i can take a picture of a page scan um a bit of the notes and then tag it so i'll read something i'll say oh that's a really good point about anchoring so i'll scan it with highlighted and then tag it as anchoring and then put it you know in my notes and can refer back to it at a later stage so that that really helps that's one thing that i use but yeah otherwise i just i just spend too much time at the pub chatting about all this rubbish that's my problem wait you do you do go to a bar and just talk to people about this stuff

[00:56:38] random people i'll go up and i'll find something i'm joking i don't do that your faces you're like no no but by the way i was like crazy this is great i'm about to go do that this is what the with the face that we took we went we were in a coffee shop once and there was this guy that sat next to us with a sign what was it looking interesting conversations or yeah he's like looking for interesting conversations and he just sat there with this sign and we were like i think we were talking we're having a meeting and he sat there probably for like 10 or 15 minutes and just

[00:57:07] chilling like not even drinking coffee he was just there with a sign and people like look at the sign and kept walking look at the sign kept walking and then we got up and we're like man nice to meet you like we're like yeah we're like fascinated by this like tell us about it i explicitly remember his question he's like you gotta share with me what is one thing that you believe to be true that most people that you share it with they don't um and it actually gave for a very good conversation but

[00:57:33] you know i feel that that's a little bit more open-ended like hey man have you heard about behavioral science in marketing and how you know definitely getting no drinks either they kick you out or they hire you and give you beer for free for the rest of your life last question of the show i mean as an action point there's so many here but i i like the pricing one right that's something that we ask and something very specific for people to kind of go on and maybe

[00:58:00] implement and test and and experiment so if you if you test it let us know put it in the comments but uh phil where where will you be if you did not publish if where would i be if i did not publish podcast podcast content uh yeah just sitting on that sofa maybe watching a bit of tally probably probably crying at stumford bridge uh we don't we don't have that

[00:58:28] uh that's awesome i really want to encourage everybody to go and check out phil's podcast we're gonna leave all the links right right below uh amazing production um judy mentioned can i have two more minutes i'm very curious like you mentioned you're not going to sleep tonight phil that's it you're spending the whole night um i'm very curious on your cadence right like obviously highly produced we we produce three a week for a reason it's not highly produced um

[00:58:57] to to some people's standards but for us it is but i'm very curious like why you decided on that cadence like how how do you how do you create like what's your creation cadence so it's a little can you walk us through a little bit of your process because a lot of the people that we help right they're going through that they're trying to figure out like what is their their their production cadence how do they actually remove friction to create there's a lot of people that have jobs there's people that are busy operating their own businesses and this is a big lift for them so can

[00:59:23] you share a little bit of like how do you actually came to to that cadence and how do you operate yeah yeah so so yeah like you said it's not your podcast is the show i run um you nudge dash marketing science simplified if you're struggling to find it um and yeah at the moment it's a bi-weekly cadence so i only i only publish a podcast every two weeks which like has its pros and cons arguably a lot of cons doesn't help me out with the charts doesn't help me out with downloads

[00:59:48] doesn't help me out with heaps of things purely like just the time and quality thing like i i'm a bit of a perfectionist and i and i know and i'm very like insecure as well like i'm conscious of the fact that i'm not you know i'm who am i i'm some marketer i'm some dude with a microphone i'm talking to people far smarter than me so i really want to make sure the shows are good i really want to research them i want to put a lot of time into them so you know for me every single show i record with the guest i don't record myself at that stage it's just about getting the guest content

[01:00:17] i will have read their book already after i record the show i'll go and do a heap of research to find similar studies to reference or other topics to talk about weave a story behind it and then record myself doing my script and then stitch that together and publish it and that just takes heaps of time even for a 20 minute show like nudge um but it just means hopefully the show is fairly high quality yeah um and and it's concise as well like i think i think there is

[01:00:43] there are two styles of podcasts i really like this style and this is the style of podcast i listen to when i'm out running like the two dudes or two people talking and just having a yarn just dudes i well yeah hopefully not hopefully not hopefully arrange but like i love that style of and like it is cool i think it's called two dudes talking that's why i said it oh that's the name of the actual podcast yeah yeah i've heard people no no no not the actual podcast

[01:01:14] i'm going way off topic i like these styles of podcasts i really like this style of like just having a yarn having a chat and the chin wag and then i like uh for me the other other style is like well if i if i don't want that i want something really condensed i want it 20 minutes i want to get the points across i don't want the waffles so i like the in between now and i've i went for the other ones i went to the extreme and that's why there's a two weeks cadence but eventually fingers crossed we'll be down to a weekly cadence yes

[01:01:37] amazing i do want to encourage everybody to go and check out this podcast nudge podcast but the value of the production is absolutely amazing i can totally understand why it is bi-weekly and i mean just the quality of information you've had some incredible guests harry dry i love reading marketing examples every time i i get hit with that i'm like oh this is so cool how you do it is is

[01:02:04] is not your typical just conversation but you are reflecting on what they said it's you just weave the story so good into in the podcast so i do want to encourage everybody to go check it out you also had how was his name um i think he's the ceo of ogilvy um i might mean rory sutherland yes yes yeah yeah yeah i mean he's a he's a hero isn't he everyone a lot of people will know him

[01:02:30] he's also that people say i've had rory sutherland on my show because it's a great thing to say but he will say yes to every podcast so watch out folks because if you're getting hit with i've had rory sutherland on my show like oh that's just a bit of halo effect he does say yes to everyone sticker shot he is he is amazing yeah i think that's my most listened to episode like his book alchemy is well worth it well worth a read yeah fun fact we actually use the halo effect and not so much

[01:02:57] right now but at the beginning we used it a lot to get people on the podcast we're like oh we would just name drop the whole thing um it would really work work out there plus you stop talking because we have to like a feeling to go to bed i know phil where can people find you besides the podcast where can they connect with you yeah find me on linkedin connect on linkedin find me on twitter phil agnew on there so phil with two l's a g n e w i'm on tiktok tiktok as of this week can you

[01:03:25] believe it let's go search for nudge pod nudge pod one word on tiktok you'll find me on there uh drop me an email as well phil at nudge podcast.com that's phil with two l's um and nudge podcast.com as well nice awesome yeah the show is where you want to go i i can totally see your tiktok blowing up with all these stories and like actionable advice and you know these principles i think people

[01:03:49] your content on tiktok is the one that i would look at it and then go binge watch every other single video that you have on your profile and then 10 hours later forget all about it and be like man i need to go i need to go back and refer to it and watch it again yeah i've got no idea what you're doing if you want to laugh go and look at it because it is an absolute amateur so if you want to get

[01:04:16] a drink uh one of those six dollar like six quid coffee all right a drink at the pub or a drink at the pub whatever you drink oh yeah we'd love to and uh visit london and watch arsenal lose that'll be amazing we can go watch an arsenal chelsea game let's do it honestly let me know yeah absolutely sweet guys with that said thank you so much for tuning to the contents profit podcast go ahead and follow this show in your favorite platforms and on social media at beast bros co that is right and

[01:04:44] phil here help you move one step closer towards your goal which i'm sure he did please don't forget to share this episode and and leave a five-star review see ya bye guys