What Investors are Looking For & Building Profitable Teams with Ben Chatraw

[00:00:00] There just wasn't a whole lot of hope. In fact, I had one doctor finally, you know with transparency

[00:00:04] He just said, you know, I think he got about 30 days until you have another issue of sepsis

[00:00:09] And I don't think that you can survive that that sepsis man. I went from death to life, right?

[00:00:14] So receive that organ and it really did save my life

[00:00:18] All right

[00:00:19] This network of men coming together that are called working on behalf is why I'm here today.

[00:00:24] In your eyes, what represents a good question?

[00:00:26] How can somebody go and dig deeper into these relationships, these conversations?

[00:00:31] One of the things I've learned is that it starts with the disposition of curiosity

[00:00:34] You know, we don't want our questions to people where we're trying to build relationships to be an interrogation

[00:00:40] Do you have like a personal framework or something that you follow?

[00:00:42] To start off with the long term, what am I driving for?

[00:00:46] And here's one of the things I'll say that at least I've discovered in my life

[00:00:50] If at the top of that list is monetary gain, you're going to be miserable

[00:00:53] For me, there's got to be some purpose that is greater than like just cashing a check and all that we do

[00:01:04] Ben welcome to the show. I'm very blessed that you're here man. We've shared some time in the soccer field

[00:01:10] You share a little more time with Fonzie and he's like we need to bring him into the show

[00:01:14] Absolutely

[00:01:15] And I'm very happy, you know after you know

[00:01:17] We got to know you a little bit better and he shared what you done in your personal life and your business

[00:01:23] Adventures I think is super relevant to you know, what we've been talking about the last few episodes on relationships and

[00:01:29] How to move your life and business forward so super excited to have you here and glad to be here

[00:01:34] It's fun fun to be with you guys

[00:01:36] Yeah, feel like I know you both pretty well

[00:01:39] In the soccer field, you know, you know the the darkest side of me, you know

[00:01:45] I

[00:01:46] Don't think I've ever seen either of you guys get sent off. So we're and you haven't seen me get sent off

[00:01:50] There we go. That's good. That's that's that's good science. Also, so we're talking a little bit about soccer

[00:01:55] I just have to add this in here

[00:01:57] Arsenal top of the league let's go boys. Just saying seven games to go. I don't know

[00:02:02] I've got my eyes on Liverpool for

[00:02:08] I'll give you a call in two months. We'll see what happened

[00:02:13] Ben there's a you know, we've had a few conversations with met at the coffee shop a few times

[00:02:18] I love the conversations that I have with you, you know, it's wild honestly for me to think that

[00:02:26] somebody with the level of success that you've had right the experience that you've had is

[00:02:32] so willingly and so open to give to other people and you know to give to other entrepreneurs like me and my brother which

[00:02:38] Are you know working towards our path of building, you know good businesses making good connections and you are

[00:02:45] Has been an incredible support right you come into hey, please let's go me for coffee

[00:02:49] We'd love to know more a little bit about what you've done. And again, like I mentioned before as an investor

[00:02:54] There's a lot of value

[00:02:55] I'm sharing relationships for you and we often hear on the podcast talk a lot about relationships, right the main

[00:03:02] Valuable thing that we found from the podcast that we've produced right from 500 plus episodes hasn't been necessarily the audience

[00:03:09] It has been the relationships and the friendships that we've managed to nurture and the opportunities that have arise from those relationships

[00:03:17] So I'm curious, you know from somebody that went to you know, pretty good colleges

[00:03:22] Right Harvard Business School and then went on to build multiple businesses scale them grow them sold a few of them

[00:03:29] I think or one of them

[00:03:31] I'm curious what has been the role in of relationships inside of your life. Yeah, obviously

[00:03:37] Relationships are huge. They're the backbone that their centerpiece and

[00:03:43] You know, hopefully to a large degree. It's how we measure success. Yeah, not not necessarily in the wins and losses

[00:03:49] I'm an entrepreneur

[00:03:52] you know, we I think we went back and counted and

[00:03:55] You know, I'm on my maybe my 11th or 12th, you know business or startup at this point

[00:04:01] They range from for-profit businesses to your nonprofits doing micro lending in Africa to

[00:04:08] You know even even be involved with you know, all-nation soccer like where we play now

[00:04:13] Yeah, and the central theme, you know between behind all that is, you know, it's relationships and people

[00:04:18] So, you know people are always always always more than 51% of the equation. Yeah, that's true in life

[00:04:25] That's true in a business plan. You know, that's that's true on the soccer pitch. Yeah. Yeah

[00:04:29] Yeah, I want to add something real quick because I just listened to an episode that you did with one of our good friends

[00:04:34] right and

[00:04:36] You have a framework for investing into companies and the step number one is

[00:04:42] People right and you mentioned the same is 51%

[00:04:46] I'm curious when you start to develop a relationship

[00:04:49] Do you look at it with the same maybe lens?

[00:04:52] You know frame as if you were to in a way invest into a company, right?

[00:04:57] Do you look into you know people's values a character?

[00:05:01] What is it that you look into people when you're looking to develop that relationship that might tell you I want to pursue this

[00:05:07] Relationship further yes or no. Oh, that's a great. That's a great question

[00:05:11] I mean it is gonna start with authenticity for me

[00:05:14] So like here's I mean, here's a secret about me that a lot of people don't know but I'm actually an introvert

[00:05:20] Like like for me, I would always describe

[00:05:23] You know the seventh layer of hell as having to go to some network event

[00:05:28] For my business and show up a conference where I don't know anyone and spend three hours

[00:05:34] I aligned with you in there

[00:05:36] And so I'm actually an introvert and like being with people particularly people that I don't know

[00:05:42] Yeah drains me like it takes a lot of energy

[00:05:45] So I am always looking to go deep with fewer people

[00:05:50] And for me deep is authenticity

[00:05:54] right, so so quality

[00:05:57] Quality of time is way more important to me than quantity of time

[00:06:00] Yeah

[00:06:00] and if somebody is gonna be real and transparent and candid with you then that's something you can build from yeah, and so that's how I've

[00:06:08] tempted to you know to live my life whether that's you know in

[00:06:12] You know relationships that are personal or whether that within that's like leading a business and being a CEO

[00:06:17] Yeah, authenticity candor that's got to be the baseline of it. That's awesome

[00:06:22] How I mean, how do you recognize authenticity right because you know, I feel like I'm the extrovert of both of us

[00:06:29] Right and that's what you are 100% he throws me into the walls in all the events like you go

[00:06:35] I'll stay here editing

[00:06:37] But at the same time when I'm for example in those conferences and different things

[00:06:41] You know you meeting a ton of people and there's like a layer right between that person that you meet at an event

[00:06:45] And then the real person on the other end and I've questioned many times for the people that I meet

[00:06:52] At the surface it sounds they look amazing

[00:06:55] But then really about investing that time that might be more valuable than anything else

[00:07:00] So especially, you know now with family now with different responsibilities like do I actually invest time in X person versus white person?

[00:07:07] Why do I invest that and that to me personally because I connect with so many maybe in those live events or even

[00:07:13] Podcasts I tend to dedicate a lot of time with to a lot of people

[00:07:17] So how does somebody start recognizing maybe those indicators of authentic relationship?

[00:07:23] Especially in business like I'm very fearful

[00:07:26] I mean, I'm very I'm very honored to be working with my brother right because obviously we know our entire life and but then

[00:07:33] Let's say we need to find us somebody else as a business partner or as a partner in a project to me

[00:07:39] That is intimidates me a ton because of that authenticity part right because it cannot be more authentic than me

[00:07:46] I'm fancy today, right?

[00:07:47] So that's like our standard and it just gets like really challenging for me to even think and sometimes

[00:07:53] Projects all move forward because of that fear

[00:07:55] So how do we start identifying authenticity in those relationships and how do we move forward with some of those?

[00:08:01] Yeah, that's a that's a really good question

[00:08:04] And you may not like the answer because I don't think it's formulaic

[00:08:07] Yeah, you know so so first of all I think it helps to understand incentives and what motivates people

[00:08:13] and

[00:08:15] It's probably why most of my relationships don't start at a conference

[00:08:19] You know most of them most of them start by some kind of interaction

[00:08:24] Where there's a give-and-take and I'm involved in a transaction together with someone

[00:08:29] So I mean that transaction may be you know we're on the soccer pitch together

[00:08:33] You know and I get to watch you take a hard-hurt tackle from behind and see how you respond to it

[00:08:39] or you know it may be

[00:08:41] You know maybe in a business environment where we bump into each other as part of a transaction

[00:08:47] But once you have that transaction

[00:08:50] The most important thing you can do is just ask good questions

[00:08:54] And then listen so one of the ways I judge the success of a meeting

[00:08:59] Whether I am talking to an investor to raise capital into something I'm doing or I'm an investor

[00:09:04] You know investing in a business is the quantity of time the other person spends talking and my goal is usually for that to be

[00:09:12] 75 to 85 percent of the conversation and

[00:09:16] Generally most people you know I've found most people will judge the meeting based on how much they've talked right so I'm raising

[00:09:22] Money from an investor, and they spent 75 to 85 percent of the time

[00:09:26] You know leading the dialogue

[00:09:28] They're gonna look back and say how that meeting went so well. Yeah, I like that got so much

[00:09:33] So over the years one of things I've learned is just asking good questions

[00:09:37] And asking the right questions and then listening to you know listening to the response

[00:09:42] I mean that's that's key to break down that level

[00:09:45] Once you ask the questions, and this is the piece you may not like I mean to some degree

[00:09:49] It's Spidey sense. I mean there's not a matrix. You know I like I like Excel I like formulas

[00:09:55] I like to be able to plug things in you know as an engineer George attack, right?

[00:09:59] I like to plug things in and say this is the outcome

[00:10:02] And with people it just doesn't work that way and so you know there's this like gut instinct

[00:10:07] I think that drives us and that gut instinct is formed

[00:10:12] Not like from you know anything necessarily like like mystical or what she ate that morning for breakfast

[00:10:18] Yeah, but I think to a large degree

[00:10:20] It's formed by the experiences that we've had over 10 20 30

[00:10:25] You know 40 years and the longer we've done that the more attuned we've sort of become with like hey something is a right here

[00:10:31] Or there's something in here that it's worth leaning into

[00:10:35] I mean same as I'm guessing asking you questions right that comes as a skill

[00:10:40] That takes repetition when it is same as communication right?

[00:10:44] Having a podcast and you know having somebody here in the room

[00:10:48] It takes practice the more relationships probably you build and then when you go through this process your spidey sense develops

[00:10:54] And then eventually you're able to pinpoint hmm

[00:10:56] There's something something off with this person or this person you know on the contrary this person is absolutely amazing

[00:11:03] I'm curious though. You know talking about good questions because obviously again. We run a podcast

[00:11:07] we preach podcasting to a lot of people and

[00:11:10] very interested in

[00:11:13] Good communication one of my favorite say I think saints it is house called is

[00:11:19] To be interesting be interested right and to be interested you have to ask questions to the other person

[00:11:27] And I noticed that

[00:11:30] You know I think what is a good question can be a little subjective

[00:11:33] We have guests you know kind of like you right now that you said that is a good question

[00:11:38] Right and for somebody else that might not be a good question

[00:11:41] But I'm curious in your eyes

[00:11:43] What represents a good question? How can somebody go and dig deeper into this relation into these relationships these conversations and?

[00:11:52] Have a quality time with somebody by asking good questions. What are those how how can people improve a little bit?

[00:11:59] Yeah, well you're right in that I think it is something that is trained and developed

[00:12:05] And I've had a lot of people invest in me

[00:12:07] and in particular

[00:12:09] One executive coach who's a mentor toward me his name is Dean Harbury

[00:12:13] runs organization called Middle Way Institute and

[00:12:17] For years Dean has been training me on how to write how to ask the right questions

[00:12:23] and

[00:12:24] So I do think it is a trained skill set and there are times. I'm in a conversation

[00:12:30] And I may be you know sitting down looking like I'm taking notes

[00:12:34] Yeah, what I'm actually doing is trying to think what is the next best question

[00:12:37] I should ask yeah

[00:12:39] So one of the things I've learned is that it starts with a disposition of curiosity

[00:12:45] So we don't want to be you know we don't want our questions to people what we're trying to build relationships to be

[00:12:51] an interrogation

[00:12:54] Generally and that has to be authentic people are gonna read that and so it's you know

[00:12:57] It does start with I'm really curious and wanting to learn and listen

[00:13:03] And staying in a position of discovery so

[00:13:07] I think you know I think like you guys at times I

[00:13:12] Am pretty cynical up front one of things. I used to run it for eight years

[00:13:16] We ran a short biased hedge fund so short bias hedge fund looks for publicly traded companies that are frauds

[00:13:23] Oh, and and we go and short those stocks

[00:13:26] In hopes that they're gonna collapse right now

[00:13:29] They're gonna become a fraud and at one point it was like the most hated class of investors in America

[00:13:34] There's a lot of things that are dirty in that space that we didn't participate in

[00:13:38] But you know built a business

[00:13:41] And to some degree part of my career around being cynical about management teams attempting to divide you know to find fraudulent companies

[00:13:49] Yeah, so I also often start with that cynicism

[00:13:52] And have to train myself to stay in discovery and straight stay in the disposition of curiosity to learn more

[00:13:59] Yeah, well you're like the superheroes of you know stock exchange

[00:14:04] Going in and super villains

[00:14:10] People hate us people hate short sellers

[00:14:12] Yeah, I mean you're pretty much betting on the fact that they're gonna fail right and that's how you can make the profit

[00:14:18] That is so interesting. Yeah, you have some really cool stories that I'm sure we're not gonna dig into

[00:14:24] All those in here because the podcast will be never ending

[00:14:27] We're definitely gonna have to have a part to just with you know some of these stories

[00:14:31] Question always into into business like growing up or like how was your

[00:14:37] Introduction to the world and under the amazing things that you've done. Yeah, I know I wanted to be an engineer

[00:14:44] Really? I want to be a soccer player

[00:14:47] This is a podcast of frustrated soccer

[00:14:51] I'm still waiting on the national team to call

[00:14:56] There's a guy online World Cup that I think have you have you have you come across

[00:15:01] His content no it's a guy that never played soccer and he made a public goal

[00:15:05] I think two years ago that he wants to go play in the world for the US and right now

[00:15:10] I mean he started zero skills zero nothing and started training and you know building publicly right and right now

[00:15:17] He's in Brazil doing some tryouts with like a third division team. I think over there, which is really

[00:15:22] Right. I'm like this is crazy

[00:15:24] Maybe we you know should link up this guy and you know maybe Venezuelans have a little more interesting

[00:15:29] That's an interesting case study out there

[00:15:34] Yeah, so I

[00:15:37] It's a funny story, but I wanted to be an engineer

[00:15:39] yeah, and it I mean it was I look back on this as one of those first decisions in my life and

[00:15:46] You know faith is an important part of my life

[00:15:48] And and there's a handful of times where I feel like God has spoken to me and helped giving me direction just a handful

[00:15:53] Right. It doesn't happen every day doesn't happen every year, but just a handful

[00:15:56] And ironically one of those was school like I came out of high school and and I thought I had a good chance of going

[00:16:02] in walking on to a division one team somewhere or

[00:16:07] Maybe even you know getting a small scholarship at D2 D3 school

[00:16:12] and I had a full academic ride as an engineer to Georgia Tech and

[00:16:16] It was a struggle for me to make the decision like retrospectively

[00:16:20] It would have been the dumbest thing ever to take a child for you know a college team, right?

[00:16:25] I have to pay for school and pay but anyway

[00:16:28] It's one of those things where I felt like the Lord finally just kind of shook me and directed me

[00:16:32] Wow, so I thought it was going to school to be an engineer. I graduated in 99

[00:16:36] So that was like right before the dot-com burst

[00:16:40] Yeah, right the bubble was about to burst so I finished and it was like the NFL draft

[00:16:45] You know like like I thought I was somebody because I had 12 interviews and I had 12 job offers

[00:16:51] And the reality was anybody with an engineering degree

[00:16:56] Yeah, any any Joe Schmo like right could get job offers in 1999 if they were an engineer right with with stock options

[00:17:03] right, but I went to work for a loosen technologies a

[00:17:06] really big company and

[00:17:08] I started when the stock price was $98 and I left two and a half years later when was 98 cents. Oh

[00:17:15] Wow, and it was an incredible experience for me

[00:17:19] Yeah as the young engineer there who was paid less than everybody else because

[00:17:24] Literally my five bosses five levels above me were all laid off in cost cuts and I just absorbed additional responsibility

[00:17:32] So so very quickly my world of engineering went to a world of business management

[00:17:38] And in that capacity to answer your question

[00:17:41] I quickly realized that God did not make me to work in big businesses. I

[00:17:48] Could not handle the inauthenticity. I could not handle the politics of a big

[00:17:55] Organization right and even though everything was going really well for me there

[00:17:59] And I had all this responsibility and I was sort of climbing this ladder

[00:18:02] It was pretty clear that I was climbing a ladder is gonna get to the top and be miserable

[00:18:08] So, you know it was it was kind of a trial-and-file of how I got introduced into you know business

[00:18:14] Yeah, I'm curious though. Did you shorted that stock from $98 to 98 cents?

[00:18:21] 15% of my paycheck for two and a half years went into

[00:18:25] Lucent stock

[00:18:28] Not only that but this did get me started

[00:18:32] Lucent took a two-fold hit first before the bubble burst. We actually got busted for committing accounting fraud

[00:18:37] We were improperly recognizing sales

[00:18:41] And it's a long story, but basically we were financing companies small companies

[00:18:45] So we were providing the money and then we were sending them our product and we were counting all that as revenue

[00:18:50] And then all those companies went bust

[00:18:52] And so all the revenue we recognize wasn't wasn't even real

[00:18:56] Yeah

[00:18:57] So I did I did learn a lot from that which I went and applied into the hedge fund that we ran

[00:19:03] Yeah having firsthand been the guy that's like punching orders

[00:19:06] Yeah

[00:19:07] Punching orders in the system as a junior engineer

[00:19:10] Yeah, where we were misrecognizing revenue

[00:19:13] Yeah, how to recognize those companies step one if they're doing that sales, you know, we're gonna be accounting fraud. There we go

[00:19:22] Wow that is so interesting a lot of the people that we connect with either in our communities

[00:19:28] Right are the people that listen to the show it seems like they might be starting with like a technical ability

[00:19:33] Maybe they're not engineer

[00:19:34] But like they're like designers or a video editor or something and they they have like this dream of like hey

[00:19:39] I want to build a business, right?

[00:19:40] so eventually you still start dealing with people right and hiring your team and doing this and we're big fans of

[00:19:46] companies and people having their own internal like content teams and so that way they can grow faster more nimble like

[00:19:52] There's a bunch of advantages, right? So from that transition that you had that it looks like it was a little forced

[00:19:58] Right. My not maybe not by choice

[00:20:01] What are some maybe two or three lessons that you take with you right as you move forward right because

[00:20:06] You know, we've lived that right the first time that we hire a team

[00:20:10] We had no idea how to run like a do we do ever a daily huddle?

[00:20:13] Do we do this do we do that and that we've kind of you know started developing our own systems

[00:20:18] I'm feeling it's still a work in progress

[00:20:20] It has evolved quite a bit right and we don't have a massive team

[00:20:23] I think it's like seven of us right now that you know internally for for business and

[00:20:27] And

[00:20:28] But it's been it's been uninteresting right and sometimes I even think about this like do I really want this like do I do

[00:20:34] We really want to grow like to a big agency, which is the answer is no like at first it was yes

[00:20:39] Let's just do this

[00:20:40] But now we're like, I don't know if we're gonna deal with that many people right?

[00:20:43] So what are some lessons that you took with you at that point?

[00:20:48] Maybe for people that I mean if you enjoy it great you're gonna move forward and you're gonna continue develop and learn but

[00:20:54] Up to that point like how do you recognize that if you'd really want to go

[00:20:59] Not manage people or a different route. Yeah, right. That's a I mean, that's a good. That's a good question

[00:21:05] So I think it's important to separate and segment managing people from leading people

[00:21:11] Those are those are two very different skill shot sets

[00:21:15] And so if you wanted to break that like into the hierarchy of a company

[00:21:19] It's really important that the CEO be visionary and be a leader

[00:21:24] Truly important the CEO be a really good manager

[00:21:27] And and those are those are we'll just call it like different spiritual gifts. Yeah, right

[00:21:34] You know, I think a lot of people will confuse the two

[00:21:39] And make the mistake of of really getting you disoriented

[00:21:42] So, you know building a business and let's just talk about it from an entrepreneurial perspective rather than a big huge business

[00:21:48] I got a lot less experience with that and a lot less expertise

[00:21:52] But from an entrepreneurial perspective, so we're say like go from zero to 50 employees

[00:21:58] You know a lot of people want to do that like it's very sexy. I think to say hey, I want to go build a business

[00:22:04] I want to be an entrepreneur the reality is it's incredibly hard, right?

[00:22:09] Yeah

[00:22:09] I mean like the percentage of businesses that make it even with even with the best of the best is very very small

[00:22:17] And so one of the things that you just mentioned that is so important to upfront is like let's count the cost

[00:22:23] Like what is the cost of going through this process? And is it something that I am willing to do willing to bear?

[00:22:30] Then second to that, you know it is how do you identify the right people?

[00:22:35] and how do you identify and then inform those into a

[00:22:40] cohesive team

[00:22:41] And those first few hires are incredibly important because if you get a bad apple in that mix

[00:22:47] I mean it runs through the company and through the culture very very quickly. Yeah

[00:22:51] And then related to that there's a recognition that you know people are people like

[00:22:57] We're human beings we get we get motivated by the wrong things. We're all gonna screw up

[00:23:02] We all need help like we all need grace and in certain circumstances

[00:23:06] But you got to recognize they're just gonna be problems, right?

[00:23:10] And that that's part of the we'll just say that's part of the cost of it. So yeah, I mean I think it could be

[00:23:16] intimidating for most but also encouraging for the ones that are willing to you know

[00:23:23] Take on that, you know and charge forward right because first less competition second

[00:23:27] You're gonna be able to build your vision, right?

[00:23:29] you're gonna be able to find people that also resonate with your vision and kind of move this thing forward and

[00:23:33] I mean just Friday

[00:23:35] I think like a project came our way that is out of our scope of the things that we do but it's really exciting

[00:23:40] Right and we started thinking about like should we say yes to this should we can continue to you know

[00:23:45] To meet with them and we put a social post off like hey

[00:23:49] We were work we there might be a possibility that we're working on this

[00:23:52] We don't have capacity right now

[00:23:53] But we might be looking for people to come on and the response was overwhelming like we're I'm still receiving

[00:23:58] messages of people that could qualify for that and just the the thought of

[00:24:03] Going through those are like what's the process that we put in place?

[00:24:07] that

[00:24:08] That maybe brings them closer to in alignment to what we're doing or maybe our personalities or how we work

[00:24:15] That's something that we never considered before it, you know making the first mistakes and hiring the wrong people

[00:24:19] I mean we hire first an agency that we thought it was one guy that was working and he had sub hired a bunch

[00:24:24] Of people and we discovered by those guys that you know, you cannot whistle-blow the whole operation

[00:24:31] What a crazy first experience we had with that and it's like for many that would have been like this is the end of it

[00:24:37] Okay, we learned a ton from that experience

[00:24:40] But thank you for for that advice and I hope this encourages a lot of people that are in this journey right now

[00:24:45] To be like, okay

[00:24:46] Maybe this is a good path for me to take and it's okay if it's not right there

[00:24:51] We can always transition and find you. Yeah, I want to keep digging a little bit into

[00:24:56] some of the relationships that you've had because I feel

[00:24:59] Again even you mentioned here on the on the form that we sent to all of our guests right that some of your best friends closest

[00:25:06] Friends even saved your life, right? So again

[00:25:10] Big value on relationships clearly. You're somebody that is very influential. But before I go there

[00:25:17] You mentioned, you know the difference between managing and being a good leader and I'm curious. Why do you consider yourself?

[00:25:24] Right and what are those?

[00:25:25] Maybe those values that a leader might have right or a manager might have what is that difference in there between the two of them?

[00:25:33] Yeah, I mean I think I've evolved

[00:25:35] I hope I'm evolved. I enjoy the leadership

[00:25:40] Vision element more today maybe than I did ten years ago

[00:25:44] And so I think there was a there was a time

[00:25:47] You know and as a as an entrepreneur there are times you have to play both

[00:25:50] Yeah, there are periods in the growth of the business

[00:25:53] But there was a you know, there was a time where the skill set requirement of a manager

[00:25:59] Which is a heavy one-on-one kind of in the trench relational skills

[00:26:05] Being able to create a call it sort of micro incentives

[00:26:10] You know that the drive performance being able to keep people accountable

[00:26:14] Right. That's a hard thing to do but developing enough trust to enforce accountability

[00:26:20] That you know, those are all things within the realm of

[00:26:23] You know management and to a large degree now the managers job a good managers job or a good

[00:26:29] You know implementers job is to be able to say no

[00:26:32] To the things that you know the leader may be advocating for

[00:26:38] And so there was a point in my career where I had a you know partnership relationship and my job was to say no

[00:26:43] to 90% of

[00:26:46] His vision yeah

[00:26:48] We made we made a great team. We made an incredible team, right? But that has evolved over time, right and so

[00:26:53] now to be able to be you know creative to be able to have a

[00:26:59] Longer time frame as we become leaders like the time frame for success, you know those those runways lengthen

[00:27:06] Yeah

[00:27:06] Yeah

[00:27:06] We may be looking now and thinking more in decades instead of like quarter to quarter results or year-to-year results

[00:27:12] And then to be able to create and define

[00:27:16] company wide culture

[00:27:18] Yeah, you know that it sort of begins to distinguish those two things. Yeah interesting

[00:27:23] No

[00:27:23] I think we need somebody in our business that is that person that says no to us to a lot of stuff because

[00:27:30] We both you know managerially speaking. He's definitely better than me

[00:27:35] You're you do a way better job at that

[00:27:38] I feel like I'm more of the dreamer, but he's also a dreamer a lot of times, right? So we

[00:27:43] Yeah, we like I have a list of running ideas in my computer, right?

[00:27:47] He comes to me and he's like, oh dude, let's do this

[00:27:49] Like this is awesome and we get all excited and motivated, you know, we're we're really good

[00:27:54] Starters like boom. Let's go. Let's go at this. Let's take it on

[00:27:58] And then some more ideas come along. So it is a challenge

[00:28:03] Definitely inside of our business that we've noticed so maybe we need to do a no challenge for you know

[00:28:11] For operations when you were mentioning this I went back to my personal relationship with my wife with Katie

[00:28:16] Right and she is that person that keeps at home kind of like on track, you know, I'm the dreamer

[00:28:21] I'm like we'll do this and do that and you know to this point

[00:28:24] She just lets me dream and lets me talk but then when it comes to like business just like so I joke with

[00:28:29] I'm like we need you in the company. You should be

[00:28:33] She was set us straight yeah 100% but you know jokingly but no jokingly

[00:28:39] I think that's a really good element to kind of identify because at the end of the day is like well

[00:28:45] What's the dream? Where are we working towards?

[00:28:47] Like what's the value that we really want to create with the organization the content the thing the messaging that we're putting out there

[00:28:52] To the world right and and those margins I think that are super important

[00:28:56] Continue to grow and I'll just add to that to sort of finish that thought

[00:29:00] I mean when you make those hires right when you're trying to identify hire and bring them into your team

[00:29:04] You need a process in advance to know

[00:29:09] The motivations and and sort of the internal driving's like beyond personality tests

[00:29:15] But you know a leadership assessment of what makes this person work

[00:29:20] And then how do they fit within the organization and then beyond that?

[00:29:24] How do you communicate with that person right because

[00:29:28] You know someone with like a sales driver personality you need those in your business

[00:29:34] You need somebody that's gonna like run over things and sometimes run over people to get the job done to grow the revenue

[00:29:42] But then you also need maybe somebody that's in the back right that has more of an analyst

[00:29:48] Mindset yeah, and the way that you approach those two and how you treat them

[00:29:53] The questions that you ask are very very different and then even more so how you integrate those two people together

[00:29:58] Has got to be part of the formula so any person that I have hired in the last 15 years

[00:30:04] And frankly pretty much

[00:30:06] You know any investment. I've made I've taken the CEO and the potential hire

[00:30:12] Through a formulaic process where they complete leadership assessments way beyond like a typical disc test

[00:30:18] Yeah, and I know exactly what I'm getting I know you know how they're motivated

[00:30:24] I know how to fit them within the formula of the team yeah that has been that has been key

[00:30:29] It's not retrospective work. It's front-end work before you bring him into the organization. Yeah interesting I

[00:30:36] In my head I can't help to think about

[00:30:41] Like I said it could be extremely intimidating right especially if you're building a new business

[00:30:45] You're like man like and we came from the world of bootstrapping right because maybe from the world of like hey

[00:30:50] I'm gonna go find an investment, and you know build a team to build the thing might be different

[00:30:55] We haven't had that experience right we've always bootstrapped

[00:30:58] We'll always trying to like figure out learn from the mistakes

[00:31:01] And you know maybe it's time for us to find a different way

[00:31:04] I don't know like those are the conversations that that we've been having a lot lately right but

[00:31:10] For somebody that might be bootstrapping right I might maybe they don't know what they don't know right

[00:31:15] It can be extremely

[00:31:18] Confusing at times too, but like oh I have to do there's so many things that we have to do

[00:31:23] How do we get to do the thing that you know we?

[00:31:27] We want to do and move forward is there a framework that you're like okay internally for me as a person right

[00:31:34] Regardless of everything that's out. You know that's outside. How do I bring it home?

[00:31:38] How do I bring it to me and then identify?

[00:31:40] My next two or three steps right because then maybe you know you're gonna shine the light in the terrain that you have ahead of you

[00:31:47] I'm like okay

[00:31:47] Maybe this is the next thing that I need and maybe we allocate their resources towards that and continue to grow

[00:31:52] Do you have like a personal framework or something that you follow?

[00:31:55] Right I know that you're big on faith right but they're beyond that or maybe that does that like how do you?

[00:32:01] Tackle that that situation oh

[00:32:03] Yeah, well it's a it's an interesting question on faith to tie it in because

[00:32:08] Those two things do work together right so like I do believe there's times when when you know

[00:32:14] I pray and ask for help which I will about anything small decisions big decisions, and I'm like

[00:32:19] Lord Jesus help me know the right thing to do in this circumstance

[00:32:23] And I'm sure outside looking in some of those are really silly

[00:32:27] But but to me like I don't have the answer and I need a source of wisdom way beyond what I have right

[00:32:32] But that also works with

[00:32:35] With us doing things

[00:32:36] Alright, so I like the framework. I would use for that is like I need to have the faith that God is ultimately in control

[00:32:43] But I need to have the urgency that my actions count and are gonna matter and drive that

[00:32:50] And so I don't have a

[00:32:53] Set framework. I mean there are a number of business frameworks out there

[00:32:57] They're used and I have partners that use them

[00:32:58] But I always have to have a plan and I know I know inherently that plans good plans are made to be broken

[00:33:06] But I always need a plan as to you know what's next so I start off with the long term of what am I driving for?

[00:33:12] Like what is it that I ultimately want to create that are my priorities, and I know what those goals are

[00:33:19] And here's one things. I'll say that at least least I've discovered in my life

[00:33:24] If at the top of that list is monetary gain monetary gain you're gonna be miserable

[00:33:29] Like there's got to be for me

[00:33:31] There's got to be some purpose that is greater than like just cashing a check and all that we do now

[00:33:37] You know as business owners like we don't have a business if we don't make a profit so you can miss on that

[00:33:42] And get so focused on on sort of the intangibles and doing good that you forget that wait a minute

[00:33:48] It's the cash flow and the profitability they create the leverage in the margin

[00:33:53] To drop some of these other goals, but I'll start with that long term

[00:33:57] And then you know I'll move that back up into the point that I'm getting into like okay

[00:34:01] What do I need to do this week to drive toward that plan?

[00:34:06] So it starts long term then I'm looking at you know perhaps 90 days out or perhaps a year out

[00:34:11] And then I try to drive that back into

[00:34:14] Okay, what are the three things I need to do this week to move this forward now?

[00:34:19] Inevitably the plane crashes like the plan gets broken it gets busted

[00:34:23] Yeah, whatever the sales revenue number is like it doesn't hit you lose the client. You know the guy you're counting on quits

[00:34:30] And so for me at that point

[00:34:32] I've got to get away from ground zero not make any decisions

[00:34:35] And then I know I just got to go back to the plan

[00:34:38] And and that you know that plan knowing that that I've got sort of an outline of paths forward

[00:34:46] One I think it helps create piece

[00:34:48] I think God uses that to sort of create piece of like okay

[00:34:51] I've got it, and you have a plan of what you're gonna do

[00:34:53] Yeah, but it also drives framework for future decisions, and it makes it a little bit easier process

[00:34:59] yeah, I like that bringing it back and

[00:35:02] Putting it into your plane of control like I have control of this

[00:35:05] That's probably why it brings you ease because if we start blaming you know to your factors

[00:35:11] We're gonna feel like we're losing control. We're giving them or power, and then it's gonna be very difficult for us to

[00:35:17] Gain peace

[00:35:19] Mentally right, but when we know we have control of something we have a plan hey now it depends on me on

[00:35:25] Taking action on this to move a step forward. Yeah, it's a little bit of a dichotomy

[00:35:30] I suppose because

[00:35:32] We aren't really in control like I'd be lying to myself like if I said you know what I am in control

[00:35:37] Of this like I've got this outcome because no matter what we think is just not true

[00:35:41] Especially with my framework right that there's the sovereign God guiding it

[00:35:45] But it does it does help drive that that sense to me of like okay

[00:35:50] I know what I'm gonna do if this happens

[00:35:54] Then I'm not gonna be in a panic because I know I have these three options right yeah

[00:35:59] Yeah, as you are explaining this. I was just picturing my two-year-old Matteo yesterday. We had a

[00:36:05] He's obsessed with ice ice chips lately. I crushed ice and he wants to and right now

[00:36:10] He tells us I got this right and going back to having control

[00:36:14] And it's like my tell can help you like no I got this right

[00:36:17] And then he grabs the little ball with the thing and then he trips in the all the ice goes in there

[00:36:21] And it's like can help it

[00:36:22] I got this and then you know he puts the plate and then puts the chips back in the plate and then continues

[00:36:27] walking and then he gets distracted like

[00:36:29] You know and then he turns around he looks at the plan right the the couch that he wants to go to and

[00:36:34] Then he continues and then he trips again, and the chips are on the couch now

[00:36:37] I got this right and as you're explaining this you know I'm picturing this image of you know my kids

[00:36:43] Going and learning through their own processes and when they want to do their own thing and and they're doing that

[00:36:50] They're resetting they're like my plan is to take the ice chips from the fridge to the couch

[00:36:54] And it doesn't matter they crash they felt I got this and you know they put him back in and they

[00:37:00] Continue to move forward and then they get distracted and all these things happen right and to to a certain extent

[00:37:05] That's our day-to-day right like we have the end goal of whatever sales goal relationships podcast episodes things are gonna be thrown back and forth and

[00:37:15] Sometimes we're too in it to kind of see it and I like what you said of like hey step back

[00:37:20] Get away from ground zero right go back to the drawing board and continue that and I think a lot of part my personal

[00:37:26] Frustration sometimes comes from being way too close and trying to move inside of the ground zero instead of

[00:37:32] Slowing down stepping back like what's the actual plan and then?

[00:37:37] Continue with with those actions, so thank you for that reflection man

[00:37:40] It's a challenge to step out honestly

[00:37:43] The view but like to carry your knowledge young because it's such a good point right you're there like as dad

[00:37:49] Yeah, and and you sort of know the answer. Yeah, right so you're there to guide

[00:37:54] And in and the same I think is true for us

[00:37:57] I mean how do we get outside of ourselves so we can you know see the forest over the trees?

[00:38:02] I mean we need like those mentors and advisors surrounding us in our life

[00:38:08] And they need to be built on authentic relationships so back. You know back to where we started

[00:38:13] Which is is something that I've strived to do for as long as I can remember is build

[00:38:19] real authentic relationships with

[00:38:23] Generally people that are older have been successful have lived and seen you know good and bad

[00:38:30] Such that when I am in a jam and need advice

[00:38:33] You know I can call them up call them freely, and they're gonna want to offer it right

[00:38:39] so

[00:38:40] Always developing those relationships kind of you know with the class of people that are smarter wiser

[00:38:45] You know above us with authenticity where like in the moment

[00:38:49] You're not calling them up because you want something you want an investment like you generally are

[00:38:54] Building that for the future has been key and they can then look into us and say you know what like this plan of

[00:39:00] Carrying the ice chips to the couch that is no good

[00:39:03] Yeah, you gotta be able to listen and adapt and and you know have the the wisdom and courage to sort of change course when people

[00:39:10] Speak into your life, but you have to have those people in your life

[00:39:13] To course correct you yeah

[00:39:16] Before you go before to finish that we ended up giving my tail a little cup with a

[00:39:20] With a lid that he can just like slate the hand through so we avoid the messes so

[00:39:26] We knew plan

[00:39:28] He was able to do his thing

[00:39:30] Win-win situation

[00:39:31] I love it, and I love to how you piece that conversation back into value of relationships

[00:39:37] And it's not the first time also that you mentioned. You know mentors in this conversation

[00:39:43] Some curious I'm gonna post two questions. You can go whichever you want right?

[00:39:48] But you can answer the other one after

[00:39:52] So the first question that I got is

[00:39:55] When do you realize the value of?

[00:39:58] Mentorship right and how have you go through your life?

[00:40:01] You know seeking that you know maybe you say you have an executive coach right for asking good questions

[00:40:08] You know investing into those mentors as well

[00:40:11] Then the other side the other question which was kind of like what I wanted to ask before on

[00:40:18] relationships is

[00:40:19] For those listening right so I feel like a good way for them to visualize values relationships is to in a way

[00:40:25] Quantify kind of like the opportunities that have come from that right I did mention earlier that you know some of your closest friends

[00:40:32] Literally saved your life right that is obviously

[00:40:36] Unquantifiable you know which is absolutely amazing

[00:40:40] And if you want if you're comfortable you can share a little bit of that story here as well

[00:40:45] but also the value of relationships when it comes to

[00:40:50] Opportunities you just mentioned right now

[00:40:51] It's not you're not gonna call people just because you need an investment or whatnot

[00:40:54] But those relationships at the end of the day they do develop into some other opportunities

[00:40:59] So I'm curious again tackle whichever you want first no pressure

[00:41:03] I'm not sure I'm smart enough to even remember both questions. I'll just start. I'll start with the latter

[00:41:09] That's okay. Yeah, absolutely yeah there won't I mean there's not full time to there's not time to tell the full story

[00:41:14] Yeah, but it is true like that is one of the ways God saved my life very very clearly

[00:41:20] I should not be here. I should be dead

[00:41:23] And if you guys want the podcast I can even send you a link that walks through the entire story right so somebody's

[00:41:29] Interested in this oh man. I got to hear this then yeah, it'll it'll save us the time

[00:41:34] But the short version of it is

[00:41:37] About you know about

[00:41:40] Little more than ten years ago, so ten or twelve years ago. I had a autoimmune

[00:41:46] Liver disease and it was ravishing my liver

[00:41:51] Destroying it the only way I was gonna live is if I had a liver transplant

[00:41:55] And frankly the outcome from liver transplant for the disease that I had it was called PSC

[00:42:01] primary sclerosing cholangitis

[00:42:04] Frankly the outcomes with a liver transfer pretty we're good

[00:42:07] We're pretty good, but I was deathly ill and I've had it for a long time

[00:42:12] Was unclear if I was gonna need a transplant or not I had really good doctors

[00:42:16] I was living in Dallas, Texas at the time

[00:42:17] They're looking at it

[00:42:18] And they're saying you know maybe in 15 or 20 years like maybe you're gonna need a transplant

[00:42:22] Maybe not suddenly I got sick. I mean I got like deathly sick in the hospital

[00:42:27] something like 72 out of 90 days

[00:42:29] and the reason I was sick is because

[00:42:32] The disease causes inflammation the bile ducts within your liver and that inflammation effectively

[00:42:39] Excuse me that that inflammation effectively sort of backs it up

[00:42:43] And so you get all this like nasty bacteria in your liver, and it's just infection after infection

[00:42:49] And then you become a risk of being septic and dying from that

[00:42:53] So it is possible liver transplant sort of cures it

[00:42:57] But the way that livers are awarded you know via the transplant list in the system the United States

[00:43:02] It's not like kidney disease where there's there's a waiting list and it's time-based

[00:43:07] Instead they're they're awarded based on how close your liver is to dying

[00:43:13] And so they have a formula its blood test, and it's like you know your liver is about to give out

[00:43:18] So you're high on the list of it. You know if something comes available and meets your blood type

[00:43:22] We're gonna fly it in I was not gonna die from a

[00:43:26] Misfunctioning liver I was gonna die from infection and sepsis

[00:43:30] And there was really not a lot within the existing system that would allow that to move up on the list

[00:43:36] So it was it was crazy. It was like a broken system to me in that you know there could be this great outcome

[00:43:42] But I can't qualify for it

[00:43:44] And it got to the play it got to the point where we know without going in all the details

[00:43:49] I got to the point where I had doctors sort of look at me

[00:43:52] And you can I've been in the hospitals enough, and you could read doctors, and there just wasn't a whole lot of hope

[00:43:58] Yeah, in fact. I had one doctor finally you know with transparency

[00:44:01] He just said you know I think you got about 30 days until you have another issue of sepsis

[00:44:06] And I don't think that you can survive that that that sepsis

[00:44:11] So I was at a place really with without anything you know anything else that I thought that I could do

[00:44:18] I

[00:44:19] Certainly praying about it certainly just trying to trust God with it right there's a sovereign. God is my creator believing that

[00:44:26] and

[00:44:27] Did the only thing I knew that I could do is that I called nine men in my life from my network

[00:44:32] They were different places different locations some of them were

[00:44:36] Captains of soccer teams some of them were guys that did business deals with some of them were men at different churches

[00:44:41] I've been at and I said guys like here here are the circumstances like this is where we're at

[00:44:47] I can't really do anything else to help myself, but there's a couple ways that that I can survive and so

[00:44:54] One of those was through something that's called

[00:44:57] A living donor doesn't donation and that's where somebody else

[00:45:02] Who is perfectly healthy goes into surgery and they cut out three-fourths of his or her liver

[00:45:08] And they put three-fourths into the person that needs the transplant and both of those grow back to full capacity

[00:45:15] But it's a pretty

[00:45:17] Intense surgery and there is some risk

[00:45:20] I mean, it's it there's a like a 1% mortality rate for perfectly healthy people right so there's like I'm processing that there's like no way

[00:45:27] I want anyone to go through that I know all nine of those guys volunteered to do it plus

[00:45:32] They got the word out and they were like another 50 people that called the hospital that said like I want to donate my liver

[00:45:38] To them. I mean talk about like

[00:45:40] Humbling right so we're racing through that process, and I am I'm really really sick. I mean I'm I'm deathly ill

[00:45:47] we're racing through that process, but the other piece is

[00:45:52] It's just something that's not not talked about and I mean think there's obvious it's two reasons why but there's something called a

[00:45:58] designated donation and

[00:46:00] if

[00:46:02] if

[00:46:03] you have if you pass away and

[00:46:06] Your loved one you want to donate your organs and your loved ones say hey

[00:46:09] You know we want this to go to this person

[00:46:12] Then the way Congress has written the laws that overrides that system and so my friends discovered that

[00:46:19] and they just started a

[00:46:22] Really sort of a marketing campaign to tell my story and they're just I mean it was it was a campaign to raise

[00:46:28] awareness about liver transplant

[00:46:31] But also a campaign to say hey if you have a loved one you know that passes away that

[00:46:37] You know

[00:46:39] You can designate an organ to Ben never happens particularly with liver sometimes it happens with kidneys

[00:46:45] I mean, it's just so so rare and in my circumstances were so very different right where

[00:46:51] Where we had a system that was broken

[00:46:55] And my friends are looking at that and saying we have a way for you know for Ben to potentially survive

[00:46:59] So I'm like anti social media

[00:47:02] You know we're talking about relationships like I like I've got linkedin and I don't even like checking that

[00:47:07] So I'm like the least friendly social media guy you got

[00:47:12] And one of my buddies you know his his background is in that space

[00:47:16] And he started a website and a page and others got the word out and within like a couple weeks

[00:47:21] There are thousands of people

[00:47:23] On five continents that are like praying for me. I'm getting letters from China and letters from South America

[00:47:30] There's all these churches that are praying for me

[00:47:33] and so that that actually drove

[00:47:37] I guess that drove this website kind of up into the you know into the rankings yeah, and there was a

[00:47:45] so young lady and her fiance passed away and

[00:47:49] She had the opportunity to donate his kidney to her aunt and went to the doctors and said well

[00:47:55] You know since I can give this to the ant cannot choose where the other organs go

[00:48:00] And in that capacity ran a Google search in

[00:48:05] This page that my friend set up for me showed up

[00:48:08] And there's a miraculous story behind that of what happened and when but man I went from death to life right so

[00:48:17] receive that organ and

[00:48:19] It really did save my life right this network of men

[00:48:23] You know coming together that are called working on my behalf is why I'm here today, so that was

[00:48:28] 11 or 12 years ago, and as you guys know like I don't know my doctors know this

[00:48:33] But like I can take a hit on the soccer field right

[00:48:37] So I'm so gracious to my friends so gracious to God for just just I mean circumstances

[00:48:44] they're unexplainable particularly follow the whole story of miraculous intervention in my life and

[00:48:50] You know it wasn't that God like you know touch my

[00:48:54] Touch my liver with his hand and miraculously saved it

[00:48:57] But he used people and he used the relationships around me to allow me to be here today

[00:49:02] Yeah, wow

[00:49:04] That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that story

[00:49:07] And I mean over the last like seven episodes we've talked on relationships

[00:49:13] And I mean this this shows to raise like how is like the ultimate case

[00:49:19] Thank you Ben for sharing yeah

[00:49:21] It's I didn't know honestly and I feel like I still don't know the full extent

[00:49:25] You're gonna have to send us that link so we can listen to the whole story right, but I I didn't know

[00:49:30] How deep into

[00:49:34] Again

[00:49:35] Relationships it went and as you were sharing the story I got goosebumps is

[00:49:40] Honestly, it's beautiful how all these people you know helped you and showed up for you absolutely amazing

[00:49:48] Honestly, I'm like. I don't even want to ask the first question that I asked you so like this this was you know

[00:49:54] Absolutely amazing

[00:49:56] I'll do like a small reflection on this

[00:49:59] I think I would love to most people think that it takes a lot to maintain those relationships or to you know to

[00:50:05] Develop them, and I don't think they do like it's like a phone call like a text message

[00:50:11] you know and and

[00:50:14] We will be very surprised if we reach out to somebody today to say hey

[00:50:18] Thank you for being in my life for I'm very grateful that we had this experience together

[00:50:23] Do you need anything like how can I help you today and that simple you know extending the hand?

[00:50:29] Will take us a long way

[00:50:31] I have you know we have a coach that we work with almost every single week Bart and and on Fridays

[00:50:37] He you know encourage every single person to send five guarded to text right and

[00:50:42] That might be the little bridge that we need for those relationships, so

[00:50:46] And then you'll be very surprised with their response. I think you know we're as a human race

[00:50:51] I think we're good good people mostly and

[00:50:55] It just takes two seconds men to continue to develop those relationships

[00:50:58] So thank you Ben for inspiring us and and everybody here in the platform to be better

[00:51:04] And all your lessons man. It was so awesome is there anything else that you want to add before we head out?

[00:51:10] No, man. That's a that's the that's a good word. Thank you guys for having me. This is fun

[00:51:16] Happy to do it again sometime

[00:51:18] We're gonna have part two for sure because I gotta ask the question you know that was before that

[00:51:24] Appreciate I appreciate you both, and you guys know where to find me if there's anything I can do to

[00:51:29] Thank you to help you along on your journey. Oh yeah, Ben. Thank you appreciate you so much

[00:51:33] What an episode what a conversation? I loved it

[00:51:36] I love having conversations with you man until you every time we go get coffee. I come back to us like

[00:51:43] And I'm grateful grateful we also get to share the soccer field together

[00:51:46] I haven't shared it in the last couple months, but you know I'll be back. I'll be back

[00:51:51] We're on the playoffs baby. Let's go. I know I know I'm excited. I'm gonna go watch and watch you guys crush

[00:51:56] Yeah, fancy anything else you want to add just just grateful. Thank you Ben

[00:52:00] Thank you for everything and I mean we'll see you around cool with that say guys

[00:52:04] Thank you so much for tuning into a context profit podcast go ahead and follow the show in your favorite podcasting platform

[00:52:10] I know social media at peace Roscoe that is trying to been here

[00:52:13] I hope you move one step closer towards your goal

[00:52:16] Please don't forget to share this episode and of course don't forget to leave a five-star review. See ya guys