How To Grow Your Podcast in 2024 ft. Jeremy Enns

[00:00:00] There's literally zero reason for anybody to listen to that show unless they know you if all they see is the John Doe show and your photo What are those places that you can? invest a lot of your energy resources

[00:00:12] Creativity to hook people right with your concept with your idea right so then people when they tune into that They're like whoo this sounds interesting and then they go and dive deeper into your world

[00:00:22] It's actually a pretty low bar is like making sure that from the title and cover art people your ideal listeners Understand that this is at least for them. This is what you can expect right? But guess what?

[00:00:33] There's other vehicles that we can present your content to people inside of your company to people that are already clients of yours Can we involve them into the creation process so you can foster those relationships?

[00:00:43] Oh, the big shows are doing this so I should do that when you have to kind of realize they have a totally different Business model than many small shows have what are your thoughts on? Personality imbued into the podcast creation process

[00:00:56] You know one of the big challenges with podcasting has always been the lack of Hey, I'm Luis and this is Fanzi and welcome to the content is profit podcast In here you're gonna get the insights, accountability and drive to create consistently and increase revenue

[00:01:11] You'll hear from top entrepreneurs creators and anything and everything you need to know about content all this while having a good time The Goldoos podcast is simple entertain educate and turn your content into profit. Let's go What's up?

[00:01:26] I'm excited about today. I'm here to learn today. Yeah, I've been pretty behind the scenes with a couple of the things and Put this episode together man quick quick context on this conversation or awesome friend Carly from the hospital podcast network she shared with us that are

[00:01:42] Other good friend that is here today with us had released an incredible trends report for podcasters marketing trends for podcast in 2023 And when I took a look at that I was like we need to bring him back on the show

[00:01:55] The work that was done to put this together is absolutely amazing. The report is incredible We'll definitely share the report if you want to take a look at it just scroll down on the description

[00:02:05] We're gonna have the link right there for you. Um, so without further ado, please welcome the one and only Jeremy What's up, Jeremy? Hey, Luis Fanzi so good to be back on the show great to chat as always Oh, yeah, Jeremy. I'm so excited. I'm so excited

[00:02:22] You and I had a previous conversation kind of like going Over that report that you put together which again is absolutely Amazing the amount of work that went into it man Thank you from the whole podcasting community

[00:02:36] First of all and you have some clear takeaways right that uh, Kind of like came out through came came out through all that work that you did So before you share those kind of like main takeaways Share a little bit about what inspired you to first

[00:02:52] Create that research like put the work for that research And uh, share with me that little kind of like timeline on what to to complete this thing because It was mind blowing before before you you answer that question

[00:03:05] I want to encourage everybody that this is not only for podcasting Of course podcasting is the main vehicle But there's going to be lessons and frameworks right that we might be able to use in other types of content

[00:03:13] Right, so we know that we have people that listen for all the reasons obviously podcasting is like the main one in our channel

[00:03:19] But look at it through an eye of like how can I take this from this industry and then apply it to whatever content you are producing So I just want to put that little answer is getting there because uh the information that we're about to share is amazing

[00:03:31] Go ahead Jeremy Yeah, so um I have been As a creator and marketer and business owner Reliant data, I know a lot of places and I'm one of those kind of nerds who actually like going through data and love the numbers I know not everybody is that way

[00:03:46] But I certainly am and you know one of the big challenges with podcasting has always been the lack of Kind of public transparent data And so you can like go and look at another youtuber's channel and you can see like oh they grew from

[00:03:58] You know 5,000 to 50,000 subscribers over the past six months And that might be a clue for you to say like oh maybe I should look at what they're doing and see You know can I emulate some of that and apply it to my own channel?

[00:04:08] Whereas with podcasting like nobody really knows how many downloads anybody else has and I think most podcast creators tend to think everybody's doing way better than them

[00:04:18] And a lot of people like you're looking at these people who seem like they're doing a really great job of the show And so you're like oh, I'm gonna copy their social media strategy or whatever

[00:04:25] But you don't really know if what they're doing is working and so for me I was like, okay This is it's really frustrating as a creator to be able to not understand who's actually doing well Who should I be emulating? Who should I be ignoring?

[00:04:38] And so that was kind of the big reason for me And then one of the other things was just kind of from a benchmark perspective of you know I've had a production agency for a long time and now work with people on the marketing side of things

[00:04:48] And I was always just curious I would collect data from my own clients and students and just kind of see like what is the Typical month-over-month growth rate that somebody should be aspiring to or like, you know

[00:04:59] What is good essentially because nobody really knows and so I had like a small kind of set of data but Kind of each one of these uh, market or not marketing reports, but reports in the podcasting industry

[00:05:09] There's been more and more of them in the past few years And I would like go through them And every time I would get excited about them I'd read through the data and then I'd just be at the end like

[00:05:17] What am I? Is there anything here I can actually like do with this? Was that conclusion right really? It's like really Yeah, and there was like a lot of stuff And to be fair a lot of these reports are more aimed at

[00:05:29] Advertisers and they were about like kind of like listeners who are who are the listeners who listen to podcasts? I was like well, that doesn't really help me as a creator do anything And so finally I was just like wait a minute

[00:05:38] I think I could just do this myself And I was initially just going to do it for my like existing 100 people in my membership community And it was then like actually if I'm putting this survey together anyway

[00:05:47] Like probably I could loop in a bunch more people and get a lot more uh responses for the I love this just yesterday I had when you talk about perspective on you know, how you might model your content or your strategy on other people, right?

[00:06:00] Um, I'm not going to say who it is, but here's the post Uh this year my podcast hit a hundred Never mind. I read wrong Okay Before reading this Say what you thought you read okay, okay

[00:06:22] What I thought I read all right, and I was screenshot it right okay So what I thought I read is like this year we surpass a hundred thousand downloads, right? And And then they go into the lessons of it, right?

[00:06:34] And I'm like in my head. It's a hundred thousand downloads Like this nine p.m. Has been a very long week And I'm thinking about wow like what you just said like we we admire this person

[00:06:44] We thought about this. I mean the core thought of it is very similar But uh, and I'm like this is crazy like we got to that number You know earlier in the year like I don't even like we don't track downloads right now

[00:06:56] Like we do this for their relationship, right? But we did and we're like wow, this is crazy Like that that person is actually a hundred thousand. Well, what did you miss three zeros? I missed three zeros

[00:07:11] But anyway, but the lessons there right because like we don't really know obviously that that person I was like very confused. I'm like she's a very big person You know literally missed the mark for a thousand percent

[00:07:20] I mean, I was so tired last night. But anyways, uh, don't consume content like one p one a.m But you know, it's it's often where we see especially like hey They might be doing x and then we assume that that's the strategy that works

[00:07:34] But they might be testing something right like, you know We have the example in the micro clipping with uh, Alex Hormozzi and his famous captions, right? And everybody's like I want the Alex Hormozzi captions. It's not about the captions guys

[00:07:45] It's about something else, right? And uh, by the way, it's a funny story. Okay. There we go. But let's do a great clip Jeremy it was um Yeah, that was pretty that was very funny. We definitely we definitely need to highlight this moment

[00:07:57] Jeremy you mentioned to me that when you first started doing this research You put a timeline on it, right? And you're like, I'm gonna release this By march 2023

[00:08:08] And then you really stayed in november 2023 and you know before again before we go into the top lessons that you got from this report I'm from doing this study. I just want to highlight First the dedication because like from march to november. It's a very long time to

[00:08:26] Easily get this courage quit the project just put it aside, right? And sometimes we tackle these big big projects And I would argue probably that more often than not people just you know, put them on the side and don't finish them

[00:08:40] And i'm curious man. Why what drove you to finish this right like what made you Complete this report and share with everybody Yeah, um, I don't know that I actually have a specific answer to that question because it kind of feels like I I was

[00:08:55] Within like minutes of giving up on it multiple times or I was like just I had the thought of my mind I was like, okay. I think I'm just shelving this thing like it's just not worth pushing through

[00:09:06] And I don't know what changed. I think then I would like have a a weekend where like So essentially what happened like I I did all the research got all the responses early in the year

[00:09:17] and was intending to release the report uh april may something like that I think it was may and As you know, I kind of expected like there's a good chance that it will take a bit longer to get all the data

[00:09:28] Process this was my first time doing this. I worked with the data vis person and so like collaborating with them I kind of went in not really knowing what the Procedure would look like and so I was kind of like this could take longer than I was thinking

[00:09:38] But I would really like to get it done by this point and part of the reason was that I had a launch coming up Like two weeks later

[00:09:44] And so it's kind of like this could work out really nicely where I could like get a bunch of exposure and get this report Out there have a bunch of visibility and then I'm going to be doing this launch for my program

[00:09:52] This could all work really nicely together And of course then like the report gets pushed it doesn't get down in time The launch happens and then the next you know two months are essentially kind of running the cohort doing all that kind of like launch follow-up

[00:10:04] And so now we're getting into the summer and then there's you know You know summer stuff like traveling visiting friends and family all this kind of stuff And it just got pushed and pushed and pushed down the road and

[00:10:16] I think like coming back into september. I was kind of like, okay I if I can't get this done by the end of the year There's no point publishing it if I can't get it done by december like I think that's too late It's getting into the holidays

[00:10:27] So I was kind of like I really wanted to get it done kind of in september october was my initial plan and then I I kind of my schedule eased up a little bit and I was like, okay Maybe this is doable

[00:10:39] But then I think I did another launch in there So I had a bunch more like client stuff to to do work with people So it kind of just kept getting pushed and at some point

[00:10:46] I think it was mid november and I was like, okay my schedule is finally clear I'm just gonna like only think about this on the weekends and I was I know myself where it's like where at the stage

[00:10:56] I was at I was like really what I need to do is build the website and it's like It's a pretty designy website and I'm a pretty good website designer and builder at this point

[00:11:06] And I was just thinking about this and I was like, oh man, this is uh This is a lot of work to put into this. It feels like I'm really close to the finish line

[00:11:13] But I know I'm not and so I was just kind of at this point where I was like Is this worth spending? I don't know like dozens of hours putting this website together Maybe 20 or 40 or 60 hours and I was like

[00:11:25] Is it really going to be worth it? And at this point I'd sunk so much cost into it that I was just like I don't know you kind of sour on a little bit and you forget like what inspired you in the first place

[00:11:34] But I kind of knew like, okay. I know myself once I actually get building in the website I'm gonna have a lot of fun And so if I can just like get a rough, you know a few things out there Then it's going to be fun

[00:11:44] And I actually did that and that's how it kind of turned out where I was like, okay Then there was a few weekends where I was just like looking forward to Actually working on the website seeing it come together. And so by the end

[00:11:53] I was like at this point before I committed to building up the website where I was You know, it's getting into end of year time. Um, and I was thinking, you know

[00:12:01] I think this is going to be the one big mistake of this year was taking on this project where I spent so much time on it I spent several thousand dollars hiring people to do data business stuff like that I spent tons of time

[00:12:12] Myself on this and I don't think it's going to be worth it And then the funny thing is like once I launched it It kind of like checked all the boxes and did all the things that I when I initially thought of it

[00:12:21] That it would do it did that and I was like, wow I'm like so glad I actually did push through it and it was this swing from like this was a huge mistake But maybe I'll just try and get it out anyway

[00:12:29] So like oh this actually did all the stuff that I wanted to do in the first place And now it's kind of set up this template to do it That I'm crossing my fingers here like much more quickly and efficiently

[00:12:39] Yeah, absolutely man three three lessons that I got from this We oversteem a what we can do in the short term right and we underestimate what we can do on the long term um, I feel like this is a challenge for most people which is

[00:12:54] Setting realistic timelines. I know I'm one of those Then the second lesson is just get started on build momentum Right because once you said, you know, I started doing this and then it became fine It was a lot of you know Once you started getting into it

[00:13:08] It was easier to build and sometimes that anxiety comes from just thinking way too much about the problem again I raised my hand myself right there and third is the first time you're gonna need to invest more resources into the activity Because again, you're starting from scratch

[00:13:28] But then that's going to hopefully set the foundation To do it repetitively on next time because you have processes you have again A template on how to lay this information etc. So it's the same with with content, right?

[00:13:41] Let's put it in the context of launching a podcast, right? Again, you might overestimate what you can do in the short term, right? And then you might plan for a certain thing in certain timeline And you know might take a little bit longer

[00:13:54] But at the end of the day, you get a push through once you get started and you're having these conversations Like the one we're having with Jeremy you're gonna see how fun it is

[00:14:01] And you want to keep going keep interviewing people or doing your solo episodes and then last but not least once you start to Repetitiously doing these episodes You're gonna notice a pretty much a trend inside of how you run the podcast that you operated

[00:14:16] And it's just gonna be easier and easier eventually allowing you to bring probably team members That can help you run parts of your podcast And you know making it more possible for you to launch more episodes

[00:14:29] I think one of the the points there Jeremy that I resonate a ton with and and I think most people in the show might too Is like We're also business owners, right? We run the business

[00:14:40] So there's a ton of stuff that happens behind the camera. It's not just the content, right? So the content itself or like even doing a project like the one that you did right can can take some some capacity

[00:14:50] To do it the first time but like I said, I give you think ahead of me like this is something that I might want to do You know the next few years Then you can start building that initial framework on that and it will help leverage that side

[00:15:00] But on the drive here I was listening actually to an interview with uh, Emma chamberlain chamberlain chamberlain Yeah, do you know the you know who she is? Yeah, the youtuber. Yeah, she has a coffee company too And then she hasn't been posting on youtube

[00:15:12] I think last year was three videos only and she was something somebody that did daily vlogging right or weekly vlogging It was like something very very intense And uh, she talks about the creative process and you know a podcast or a platform or a project like that

[00:15:26] It it takes that capacity at the end of the day. She was not happy with the thing that she was creating Right, so I think that's a very important thing And then she she free herself from that belief and she's like, you know what?

[00:15:37] I'm just gonna stop running this rat race of content or consistent stuff Or you know because I don't like it anymore And I'm just going to shift to something that I do that I do like at this moment in my life

[00:15:46] And for her it was a podcast and then maybe three videos documenting these really big events that she did Uh, and we talk about this quite often With projects like that like like for example, uh, I know that if I don't like that project

[00:15:58] I probably won't put the effort that I need to put to to do the best thing possible To do it right like different We have a team or you know, there's certain parts and certain

[00:16:07] Levers that you can pull to make it happen if it does need to be happened But you know for the last week or so I personally have been working on a project that's like along the lines of what we want to do for the the long term

[00:16:17] And that fire kind of reignited a ton, right? And it's like, uh, It brings me to that and then with content I think people need to bring it down be like, okay

[00:16:24] It maybe podcasting doesn't excite you or what does excite you because right now every single company needs to create something We highly recommend podcasting obviously so you can check Jeremy's Not not bias at all Not bias

[00:16:36] But uh, but uh, we can do something that fulfills us and for us having these conversations and relationships is Is something so uh, I hope it ignites fire to somebody to do an amazing project like the one that you did

[00:16:47] I'm sorry. So let's dive this dive in into the goodness of this report, right? And uh, You know for people listening, we're gonna go a little bit into water Jeremy's top three lessons from putting this report together

[00:16:58] Also, we're gonna give you some action points on what to do To grow your podcast in 2024 and then as well We're gonna share a little bit of Jeremy's favorite marketing campaigns that he have seen

[00:17:12] Because he knows a lot of podcasters. He's worked with a lot of podcasting people and uh, I'm very curious I'm very curious to see, you know, not that I'm trying to write down in here all the secrets, but

[00:17:23] All right, so let's start at Jeremy with what are your top three lessons that you got from Putting this report together Yeah, I mean, I think the first one the the real question behind the whole report for me was around that month over month

[00:17:36] or annual growth rate usually I track month over month and That's what I've always done for like email lists social followings all those types of things and it just to me

[00:17:44] It makes the most sense. Uh, it kind of levels the playing field a little bit where it's hard to know like, okay If you're growing by 100 downloads a month like How does that that's you're not really if you're looking at a show that already has

[00:17:55] 10 000 downloads a month like 100 Downloads a month for them is almost nothing whereas if you're starting from like 10 downloads a month is like incredible growth

[00:18:03] And so I think it kind of like going by a month over month growth rate is a better indicator of like how you're stacking up to Other similar shows and that does vary like it's easier for a small show to grow by a larger percentage, but

[00:18:16] That was kind of like one of my questions all the time I kind of assumed that like from what I'd seen from clients a kind of average 5 percent Month over month growth rate was like pretty solid like if you were

[00:18:26] In the five to 10 range, which is a lot of like what I've seen from newsletters and things like that as well Like you're doing pretty well and one of the big surprises was that how much lower it actually was and so

[00:18:38] Keep in mind like the the survey data here is all active podcasters. So one of the things with a lot of the Whole podcast industry surveys is that they count a lot of like dead shows essentially that haven't published in years sometimes

[00:18:52] And so this was interesting that this was like all shows that were actively publishing throughout the year And actually with this number it was the full 12 months straight They had 12 months of publishing data that they submitted and the average was only 1.6 percent per month growth

[00:19:06] Which is like you start thinking about like if you have 100 downloads Yeah, let's just say a hundred downloads an episode Over the next month. You're basically looking at like 101 which is like such a small But maybe it's uh, you round up to 102

[00:19:20] But it's like such a small amount and of course that that adds up to more listeners as you have a bigger show But still it's a lot lower than people would think and so that to me the the big takeaway is like

[00:19:32] Okay podcasting as a medium is hard to grow Like if that's the overall kind of median typical show that we're looking at here Is growing by 1.6 percent month over month? That's not a ton. Uh, and so I think that to me

[00:19:46] I like a lot of I think I got the report open here and When I asked like people what is the reason for your you podcasting 27 percent of people this was tied for the the most common answer was to grow my audience

[00:19:59] And that to me suggests like there's a big disconnect here because like people start shows to grow their audience But it's just not a good platform for

[00:20:06] Growing your audience. It's a fantastic platform for nurturing your audience and turning kind of attention that you're finding elsewhere into clients and customers But it's not, you know, there's everybody knows this in podcasting. There's not great discoverability right now

[00:20:20] And so I think that was the one thing that was both Disappointing but also kind of encouraging for a lot of people who might be looking at their slow growth And it's actually like oh, this is

[00:20:29] Totally normal and it's not that shows there aren't shows that grow much faster than that But by and large, you know, that's kind of what maybe you should build your expectations around Yeah, I I love the especially like now with the studio

[00:20:42] We have so many of these conversations of people that want to get into the industry And they might have a reference of maybe a youtube show or something like more visual or more like The entertaining side right and and then we're like well, what's the topic?

[00:20:54] And it might be something that just the market itself might be super niche And it might not achieve those expectations But now even with this realistic data, right? Like this is what you can expect, right? But guess what?

[00:21:05] There's other vehicles that we can maybe present your content to people inside of your company to people that are ready clients of yours to people that You know, can we involve them into the creation process so you can foster those relationships?

[00:21:17] And and I think it will ignite a lot more conversations for people to collaborate and and and take actually advantage of this incredible medium. Yeah, I think the Natural question that is going to come into most of the people that are listening to this is going to be

[00:21:31] Okay, one percent pretty low How do I increase that? So we're gonna go to your other two lessons from the report and then we're gonna cover that Then we're gonna go into a little bit of a some action pointers in there to

[00:21:46] Grow in 2024. Hopefully beyond that one percent month over month. So what are the the other two lessons? Yeah, so the the one I think the the third one I'll share here is kind of a two-part and that will lead into the next conversation

[00:22:00] But the other thing that I was kind of fascinated to find is that there was a full 30% So like a third of the shows that submitted data actually shrunk in per episode downloads

[00:22:11] Which was you know, you have to imagine that yeah, of course like some shows must shrink But I I think we all assume that like the only way to go is up and like I think a lot of podcasters have you know hit that plateau but to see

[00:22:24] So many shows decline was really fascinating And when you look at a lot of the data behind it, it's usually shows that are big And so a lot of times their shows that are old. So they've been around a long time

[00:22:36] They are big shows that might have tens of thousands of downloads They were big shows were way more likely to shrink than small shows which kind of makes sense Like they have a show with 10 downloads an episode doesn't have that far that they can actually go

[00:22:47] Where's a show with 30,000 downloads an episode like they could go up a lot But they could also go down quite a bit too. Yeah, and so I thought that was really interesting this the other thing that was interesting about that was

[00:22:59] There's all kinds of nuance to it that you have to kind of tease out from the data But what I saw with those with a lot of the shows that shrunk on a per episode basis They actually still grew on a total downloads basis

[00:23:12] And the reason was that many big shows because of the kind of like economic model that they're following End up publishing a lot more episodes And so it it kind of makes sense that a show that had you know, 20,000 downloads an episode

[00:23:23] They used to publish once a week They start publishing three times a week and they didn't all of a sudden like Get two times or three times more people It's like now the same they still have the same audience

[00:23:33] But their audience is maybe only listening to one or two episodes a week rather than all three So it's kind of pulling the average down and so I think like that was something that

[00:23:41] Um, I wanted to kind of put a point on with some of the data where it's like You could look at some of this stuff and be like, oh the big shows are doing this So I should do that when you have to kind of realize

[00:23:52] They have a totally different business model than many small shows have And it kind of demands that they put out as much content as possible And it's not like they got big because they were publishing three episodes a week

[00:24:02] It's because they kind of have to if they want to keep the revenue coming in and get more ad space and things like that And to some extent it may actually be hurting their overall growth. Yeah, that's very interesting. I'm curious

[00:24:14] Why do you think some of those shows are shrinking Beyond the fact that uh, you know longevity and maybe people are like, well, this is the same as it was Three years ago. Are there other reasons?

[00:24:27] Yeah, I think so I mean on the on the per episode basis It's just I think they produce more episodes fewer people listen to all of them. So that's I think a big one but other than that I

[00:24:37] Especially with a lot of the shows being that that shrunk being older. I think it's You just get stuck in whatever you were got successful with you kind of like keep replicating that

[00:24:49] But eventually trends change and so that might not be the type of show that people are like new listeners are really into anymore And maybe even existing listeners start to get tired of that And so you're left with a lot of your super fans

[00:25:00] But it's not really appealing to bringing in new people And I think that this is just this like natural life cycle of any business any content that as it ages

[00:25:08] It gets harder and harder to stay relevant while also honoring all the people who've been there for a long time And uh, I think this is one of the reasons why like a lot of um There's multiple reasons for this but a lot of networks or successful shows

[00:25:21] Will spin off new shows and so instead of trying to reinvent the old show they'll say okay We'll keep this going because we've got a good thing here

[00:25:28] But we're actually going to start a brand new show and we can use our existing platform to kind of launch it and build that That initial audience, but we're going to try a new format

[00:25:35] That's like feels fresher more kind of like in line with what people are really wanting from podcasts now And that's going to be its whole new show. Maybe it's same host. Maybe it's different hosts whatever

[00:25:44] But I think that that is what happens a lot of time. Yeah, that's such an important point here just just one second it I've seen that a lot with like wandering networks. I wonder that they do this

[00:25:55] Very high quality podcast and you know, maybe they have some like business wars that It's been running now for a while and it's absolutely amazing But every season kind of has that element of novelty, right? Because they're picking two new businesses putting against each other

[00:26:12] but then you have series right and Kind of like the bunga bunga, right? That was more of like a limited story about one person And then they use that to promote their app and other shows inside of the network

[00:26:27] So they're kind of like what I'm imagining is like a chunk of listeners that they go jumping from one another And as they're jumping to one another, they're kind of like dragging new listeners and collectively they're they're growing I think that's that's that's a key point

[00:26:40] And for the independent podcaster or the business podcaster I would challenge you to think on like how can you potentially maybe include That element into your podcast, right? Can you have seasons? How can you include the element of novelty, right?

[00:26:54] Can you make it rather than just an interview? Can you do like a little bit of a talk show, right? Can you have the spinning wheel with prices and chances? I don't know like can we do something different?

[00:27:03] I think it's a it's a fun question to to ponder about Yeah, and I think maybe like that conversation is a little bit harder to have when you have a

[00:27:10] Loanformer show where people are investing a lot of resources right into this like they might be thinking like I mean We've sat down a few times and we you know drama about like what's the evolution of content's profit

[00:27:19] Or the two brothers show or you know the soccer show that we want to like there's all these spin-offs like within the network That brings out maybe your personality or way to look at things Maybe it's not us hosting but it's somebody that you know

[00:27:31] We admire and that we want to have him in part of the network and you know It's part of our roadmap internally like as a as a company to start doing that And I remember when I first started listening npr like this was like five years ago

[00:27:43] Wasn't it podcasting wasn't even like a thing? In my head, right? It was like this thing that I had to listen while driving to training soccer kids and uh Planet money was my favorite shows that I would listen and then they they did the launch of the indicator

[00:27:57] And the difference was planet money was about 30 minute show documenting like an experience and and these like trends And then the indicator was the concept was we're gonna debrief like this one number of things that happen So you know inflation goes up 9 for it for example

[00:28:10] Then they will do that for like 10 minutes and it was like a very Small show and then both of them still exist today But then they've also released along that line of thoughts like different things. So it's like this sub-sex

[00:28:22] Of content and we've we see that a lot with micro content Right like with people on tick dog on reels and different things that they have like these themes of clips That they do like interview clips or they do reaction clips and they do

[00:28:35] You know behind the scenes stuff or they do voice over over like somebody executing an action, right? So that's their way instead of that specific platform on how to do that. So the format

[00:28:45] Is these different different things within the same, you know, uh framework like how can you do that for podcasting? I think that's an interesting challenge for a lot of companies because they see this medium

[00:28:55] As like just one of those elements but within that channel you can do so much, right? You could have your internal podcast. You could have your outside marketing podcast You could have a sales indoctrination side like there's all these elements that a business today can take advantage

[00:29:10] On this platform. Yeah, I think there's also an element in here of You know, maybe more of a reminder that a percentage of your content Should be based on what's working and keep doing more of the thing that is working And then another maybe smaller percentage

[00:29:26] Keep it as a test, right? Like you have a hypothesis like oh Maybe a series on You know content software is going to do great and then we start doing that And if enough it doesn't perform cool

[00:29:38] We cut it and we go on to the next thing but always be testing new things Because one of those could explode and then lean into that one put more resources into that So Jeremy, what is the the third one the third uh lesson here?

[00:29:53] Yeah, so this one was a little bit interesting because I had my expectation of how this would go and with a lot of the the numbers here I was like expected one thing and either it confirms it or it doesn't confirm it

[00:30:04] And so this one I had to do with I was really curious about the budget differences And so in this section essentially in a lot of the report There's two kind of cross analyses happening. So the first one is shows that are

[00:30:17] I'm getting 10,000 or above downloads an episode 1000 to 10,000 or less than 1000 So the first part of the report is all like big versus small shows essentially And then the second part of the report where there's a bunch of data was on the growth rate

[00:30:30] And so like high growth shows that I think it was like more than doubled in the year So they grew by 100 or more and then there was Shows from 21 to 100 and so 21 was the like Average growth rate and so it was like shows that were better than average

[00:30:44] But they didn't double in size and then zero to 20 percent Which was kind of the like okay, they did grow but they grew less than the overall average And then the shows that shrunk and so I was really curious in this section to see like okay

[00:30:55] Regardless of a number of downloads per episode like just talking about growth Like what are people doing here? And it was really fascinating where As you kind of like would expect to some extent the Highest growth shows or the shows that did double in size

[00:31:12] In terms of budget they Spent more than any other category And so I was looking at that and I was like okay that makes a lot of sense Kind of affirms what a lot of people would think but what was really fascinating was that

[00:31:22] There was one show that they had a budget of For marketing and production everything. I don't know how many episodes they did per month. It was 17,500 dollars per month And so they basically dragged up the whole average of this category And if you look at if you remove

[00:31:41] That show from that data set That group of high growth shows actually spent the least on their show Which is Just kind of like mind boggling and it's like oh they they spent less on production and marketing like all of it combined

[00:31:54] And so I was thinking about this and The it kind of paired with the second data point which was around how much time these shows spent on their shows And this one it was

[00:32:05] There was no kind of surprises here that the the highest growth shows spent more time on both Marketing and production than any other show But it was a way slimmer margin than I was thinking and so I was expecting that the high growth shows would spend like

[00:32:19] Two or three times as much time on marketing as any of the other shows did and it was very Similar actually so like all told the weekly time investment for the high growth shows was just over 12 hours And kind of the average for all shows was around 10 hours

[00:32:36] So they spent an extra two hours a week or so on production and marketing they spent maybe An extra half hour On marketing specifically than other shows. So it's like okay that you know that there is something to be said for that but I think

[00:32:51] combined the what this kind of says to me and there could be many interpretations to this is that okay They didn't spend a ton more time on production or Marketing and if we remove the one show they actually spent less money on production and marketing

[00:33:05] so like why did these shows grow so much and the the only real explanation that makes sense to me is like They just have better concepts like they are inherently more interesting shows that they don't actually take as much money to

[00:33:18] You know invest in advertising or anything like that and also they don't they get better returns on the time That's invested in them than the other shows and so you know that could be I could be totally off base with that but that

[00:33:29] Based on the data that came out I was like this seems to be the most logical answer that like they get better results without really doing a whole lot more It must be that it's a more interesting show or that feels like a plausible Yeah, oh man

[00:33:42] So good so to rephrase this real quick to make sure i'm uh understanding properly and maybe help some of the listeners here as well you're saying The resources invested into podcasts are not directly correlated to the growth Rather than maybe the positioning the idea

[00:34:04] Behind the podcast itself. How are you presenting yourself? In front of a new audience that is influencing way more Than actually you spending your you know resources into this yeah That's exactly it and I think like this is something that I

[00:34:24] I think the more and more people I work with I've been you know working with people for years and years now on podcasting And it's just like every new year. I'm just like oh man It's it's so hard to fix things with marketing when you created a show

[00:34:36] That wasn't really interesting and I think like people You know people don't like A lot of a lot of people this is how I love marketing a lot of people don't want to spend their time marketing

[00:34:46] Especially their podcast they're like the podcast is supposed to be marketing for my business And so I don't want to spend more time marketing the podcast to then get people into the business

[00:34:54] And I think like the what you realize is like okay if you want to spend less time marketing Then the only real way to do that is to like make a show or whatever your content is that is just like really inherently compelling

[00:35:05] Whereas like you just get in front of people and people like oh I want that that sounds like the show that I just like have to listen to it

[00:35:10] And I think when you don't have that then you have to like push really hard and spend money and like Just pound the pavement to like get people into it which like is the last thing anybody wants

[00:35:18] Yeah, I you just hit the nail like that that's one of the things I really wanted to comment It's like a lot of people come With the perception that the podcast itself is a marketing vehicle for their company

[00:35:30] And we got to understand that the podcast or the piece of content that we're creating that on its own Is a product that you do have to market as well, right? Yeah So like by making that you know that Distinction distinction

[00:35:45] It's going to help a ton of people now To to to map it out and and plan like what they want to produce right? We had that conversation early when we as soon as we took over the studio this group of people came on and They were

[00:35:58] We had these conversations on the onboarding side of things and we're going through their concept and it was like an It was a client that our the previous owner had and we were supposed to start the production

[00:36:07] And they bring a proposal and they're like hey, Luis like I would love for you guys to do like Apples to apples comparison to this proposal and I started looking at it and is a marketing proposal It's not a production proposal

[00:36:18] And uh, and they put in like all the promotional like stuff in there But then there was zero production Things in the proposal right and I'm like well you guys are coming to the studio to actually produce the show So this has nothing to do with it

[00:36:31] This is why you need to pay to actually produce the show and they were so shocked, right? They were like they thought like that was the thing it was like

[00:36:38] How many posts on website the blog the you know building the the site are doing the blogs and doing the things I'm like We have to understand that those are all possible pieces that are needed to promote what you guys are creating here

[00:36:49] And making that distinction is super important When we tackle to do this right and like you said like better concepts And and this is where like the creative part can be like really interesting, right?

[00:36:58] Because you know, you look at like Dave Ramsey and what he has built with his network, right? And he show and all the clips that you know that come out Especially it's like him roasting people that have not done like very well with the finances, right?

[00:37:11] And there's a reason that's that way right because he creates like this This hooks for then the rest of the content that then promotes the rest of his company This actually reminds me of uh something at liabda comments on On podcast which is

[00:37:28] He puts an asymmetrical amount of effort into his content creation meaning You know, he doesn't put the same amount of effort on the intro the middle and the end of his videos Because when you see at the retention graph most people listen to the beginning, right?

[00:37:44] So if you put the most effort at the end of the video Not the most amount of people are going to watch that segment that you put the most effort in

[00:37:52] So you want to put most of your effort where most people are going to see at which in the podcast in case might be The maybe the image right the artwork and the podcast description

[00:38:06] Maybe the podcast trailer as well, right? Like what are those places that you can? Invest a lot of your energy resources Creativity to hook people right with your concept with your idea, right?

[00:38:20] How you are positioning yourself your podcast so then people when they tune into that they're like, oh this sounds interesting And then they go and dive deeper into your world

[00:38:28] That's not to say you're not going to put any effort on what comes next. Of course you need to But again, I think that's that's very important And I think that builds onto the next part of the conversation with what which was

[00:38:41] Right, what are some of those actions that people can take to improve their podcast growth in 2024? So pretty much so far we have, you know more intention more energy right more resources into that front Facing part of the podcast right artwork I'm guessing title

[00:38:58] Description right what is your value proposition to the listener? So what what other ways and I know you have a framework for this so you feel free to go more in depth in this Yeah, I mean

[00:39:11] I would just first like reiterate what you just said because I think I always think about it through the the process almost like kind of conversion rate optimization So if you you know do any of that with landing pages things like that it's like, okay

[00:39:23] What are what can I do to get more people to click the button or buy the product or whatever it is? And in podcasting it's like, okay when how might somebody come across my show? Maybe they hear about on another podcast or something like that. That's that's great

[00:39:35] If that's part of your process, but a lot of times a lot of people are spending You know time and money on social media and it's like, okay What is the process here somebody needs to see maybe the preview links that they see the cover art

[00:39:45] they see the title and You know most people who see that are not clicking through So if we can raise the percentage of people who are clicking through when they come across the show

[00:39:53] So that means the title has to hook them as both relevant to them. That's the first thing I think like one of the biggest things that I have just it's actually a pretty low bar is like

[00:40:04] Making sure that from the title and cover art people your ideal listeners Understand that this is at least for them. And so it doesn't need to be like this amazingly catchy title or something

[00:40:14] That it's like if it if they can see this and they're like, oh, this is a show designed for someone like me Like even if it's super plain language or something like that, they're gonna at least consider it And so I think like that's the first thing

[00:40:25] Just thinking about okay title Considering that most social media consumers know what a podcast is right? That's the other thing It's like there's a big percentage of content consumers that might not know what a podcast is or might not even have the podcast app on their phones, right?

[00:40:39] Uh, it's growing. It's like people are learning other way more is becoming a little more mainstream But this is also considering that Yeah, I think the the second thing then kind of building on that is like Again, there's many ways people discover podcasts

[00:40:52] But another big one is you search a keyword phrase in a podcast app and there's probably going to be in most niches 10 20 100 shows that are all somewhat related to your topic that come up there and so then it's about like, okay

[00:41:05] How do we stand out here and sure design is part of that? But I think that's where the concept becomes much more important and that's not always super Visible from the outside like what the format of your show is and what makes it different from other shows

[00:41:18] but I think that like this is something that really Shows that grow much more quickly and are much easier to market have really interesting unique Concepts that other shows it's not just like an interview show where we interview successful people on this topic about how they did that

[00:41:33] Like that's not really a concept there. I mean, it might have been at one point But now that basically sounds like a million other shows Yeah And so it's like how do we explore this topic in an interesting way that no other show has done yet? Yeah

[00:41:47] I'm curious on First of all, what are your thoughts on personality, right? We we say here often Personality is super important, right? I think is one of the things that is not talked about That often that much

[00:42:02] I feel like people might be a little bit afraid of offending others and say and then like hey Look, you got a little bit of a bland personality or something Or maybe, you know, it's again. There's listeners for every type of personality as well. I do believe that

[00:42:15] But I do think we believe here that personality is very important, right? At least us as consumers were very attracted to creators with, you know, cool personalities that have values They know what they stand for right there. They're not afraid of expressing their mind

[00:42:31] And what do you stand for fancy? That's a conversation from another day But you know a lot of times too also I see this Podcast like the John Doe show for example, right and I'm like who's John Doe?

[00:42:45] Like I have no idea like why would I click on this thing? I'm curious on On your thoughts on that like how do you see personality? Uh imbued into the the podcast creation process, right?

[00:42:59] And also how do you see it as using your name for, you know, that from-facing part of the podcast that requires a lot of effort Yeah, I think there's there's two considerations When you're thinking about that I think

[00:43:13] A lot of times this would maybe vary depending on the genre that you're in and what type of show you're in I think a lot of people are looking to build a personal brand

[00:43:21] Around their show and that's why they lead with their their photo on the cover and their name And I think a lot of people don't think like why would somebody listen to the show who doesn't know me? Because they won't like there

[00:43:32] There's literally zero reason for anybody to listen to that show unless they know you if all they see is the Jondo show and your photo like there you need to give them something more than that and so that is I I get that

[00:43:46] And sometimes depending on your goal if your big goal for the show Is you're saying Okay, nobody knows me now, but I'm going to be doing this for for 10 or 15 years And I think I don't know if you guys know Danny Miranda

[00:43:56] He's a I think a great example of this where he's just like hey, I'm I'm in this for I'm playing this game for decades And so he's got the Danny Miranda podcast and he's kind of like, you know

[00:44:07] I'm in this for the long game and yeah, nobody knows me now But I'm going to keep grinding away and doing a incredible show until people will know my name one day And like I want to have that personal brand association with it

[00:44:18] And so I think you can choose to do that And you just have to say then like okay if anybody's gonna listen to the show They're not going to come through search results or meet coming up there Like I'm going to have to find these people elsewhere

[00:44:29] They're first going to have to get to know me on another platform for some Whatever it is that they are going to follow me for and then they're going to find out about the podcast through me

[00:44:38] So it's a bit of a longer game that you're taking people on And that's totally fine It's just gonna take a lot longer probably to to build up the show And so I kind of think about that is like there's

[00:44:47] Host-led growth where it's like people listen to the show because they like you And you're the gateway to the show or like show-led growth where it's like It's just an interesting show that you hear the concept

[00:44:56] You're like you don't even care who hosts it anybody could host it and it's and maybe they couldn't but like when you just look at the The concept you're like wow, that's an interesting show

[00:45:03] Like I want to listen to it and I think you can have both actually like you can be an interesting person That people find you and you can also have an interesting show

[00:45:11] Um, that's kind of the you know the best place to be in but you can also do it in in either direction And so I think like you kind of want to know what is my

[00:45:19] What's the game I'm playing here? Yeah, and then the second thing that I would add under that in terms of personality Is I think like it's it's really to get the sense of the personality people need to listen to the show

[00:45:29] So people aren't typically going to listen to the show Without In this case like unless they already know you or something like that or the show is interesting But I think once people are in

[00:45:40] The host makes a huge difference in retention and I think that this is something that Not doesn't get talked enough about and people don't think about it in terms of marketing

[00:45:50] Like everybody thinks about like getting new people in but they don't think about like once people are in like Are they sticking around and it it's just really sad to me to think like you would just imagine a scenario where you get like

[00:46:00] a thousand new people a month listening to the show and You know 900 of those never come back. They listen to like three minutes or one episode and they're gone And it's just like wow you spend all this effort getting these thousand people in

[00:46:11] And you only are left with a hundred of them left Like if you can improve the quality and the retention of the show Like you're gonna get way more out of your marketing efforts and you could drastically accelerate your career

[00:46:20] Yeah, it's like it is the bucket licky right like we used to talk about this like all the time with the studios Is like we used to have you know X amount of people coming in but then if that percentage of you know

[00:46:30] They're not like in the classes. They're not like in the the fitness, you know Coach or whatever there might be a reason and I think that's a great Opportunity for you to learn, you know more about your show and start, you know patching those

[00:46:42] And I think a lot of people might be scared to have those conversations Right like as soon as you see that You might perceive yourself as a creator that does it really really well Maybe you are an expert in your field right and you know the topic

[00:46:52] But maybe that's not entertaining for people. Maybe people don't want to consume that information in that way And I personally think a lot of people are scared to face that feedback And and that's part of like what and I've certainly been in that position

[00:47:06] Where it's like man like this took us so much effort so much resources so many resources like we're consistent finally, right like Crab like am I actually that person that can actually go and look at this feedback

[00:47:18] And learn from it and then continue to evolve right and that's I think as a creator a lot of people are faced with that Um for a business, you know depends on like who's the face of it?

[00:47:28] But I think it's important to go and look at the at that information. Yeah, the This reminds me also of a comment that shampoo remade one of the co-hosts from my first million He mentioned that people will come to the podcast because of the topic

[00:47:46] And and they will stay because of you right and I I do agree There are some podcasts that I listen to that I don't really care who the host is

[00:47:57] Right and you can tell they're a highly scripted show like it has a lot of you know effort in there Um, I think the host might be maybe picked because they have a good voice. Who knows But this shows that are more conversational based interview base

[00:48:12] Guess what the personality is a huge huge factor and the ones that I I see myself coming back to Are people that I'm drawn to that I want to learn from I like their personality

[00:48:25] I like their jokes whatever it is right so I I do agree a lot on you know Putting this effort up front for to position your podcast get people to find you but then

[00:48:35] Your personality has to captivate people somehow or the way you're you're leading the show right now We recently had a review that they definitely didn't like us Somebody didn't like it We we have an episode ready for you. Yeah, we got an episode pending on that

[00:48:54] So Jeremy we talked about improving podcast growth through putting this kind of like asymmetrical effort front any other things that people might consider To improving their growth on 2024 Yeah, I mean I I think like the big problem with podcasting

[00:49:09] Growth is friction and so like getting people into the show And so like we kind of talked about the cover art title description all that kind of like first touch points that people have

[00:49:18] That's gonna reduce the friction that it takes to get somebody in but I also like to think about like how can we use other mediums? That have less friction and so like thinking about

[00:49:27] A lot of people I talk to like they're out on social media, which is is great It is a discovery platform in on many most social media platforms And so they are getting more attention there than the show is probably getting on its own

[00:49:38] But they're like trying to they're playing on hard mode where they're like trying to get this like Really kind of like short attention spans that people have on social media and immediately turn that like send people to the podcast Whereas for me, I'm thinking like okay

[00:49:51] How can we what's a lower friction next step for them? And so on the one hand like probably if you're on social media, you may be I mean a lot of people aren't actually Playing whatever the game of the platform is to grow that platform

[00:50:02] That's one way to do it But I really like to think about email and especially for any business owner like you should have email Anyway, and so thinking about like okay. I'm going to go out and get attention

[00:50:11] It's way easier to get somebody to sign up to my newsletter or a lead magnet That's something that you can like go it takes like 30 seconds to like oh that sounds interesting

[00:50:19] I'm going to go submit my email and now I don't need to do anything else right now I know it'll be waiting for me in my inbox Whenever i'm back on my computer or whatnot or next wednesday when the newsletter comes out

[00:50:28] And so then you can you can do this many ways What I like to think about is like if you want to get really technical Then you can start to do some like listener segmentation or subscriber segmentation here where it's like maybe in the welcome email

[00:50:40] It's something like, you know, which of these is the biggest thing you're focused on right now You've got you know three things related to your topic and they click one of those links And then that triggers a follow-up email says like hey

[00:50:49] Since you mentioned that you were interested in this here are five episodes that you might find really valuable from our podcast And so now you've both got like awareness of the show and you've also kind of curated this like

[00:50:58] Handpicked list of shows that you know are relevant to that person Which then again lowers the friction that they're like, okay Oh this show exists and wow these this episode topic sounds like exactly what I needed right now And so I think that it's it feels

[00:51:11] Like there's more steps in getting people to the podcast It feels like the most direct method is like hey, I see someone on social media go listen to podcasts There's nothing in between but I think it's actually Oh, this is I never thought about it this way

[00:51:23] It feels like close in like one axis But there's this like height level too or it's like asking them to like jump up this mountain Where instead you can get them to go up these stairs around the side I gotta this is a great new

[00:51:36] You think this all the time now Yeah, no, I I love this and this is one of the things that we like That is very present in our every every day right people consume content in different ways, right? And I you know, there's a

[00:51:48] There's a stutter a post going out around there. It's like people don't consume long form content, right? And you're like well actually they do that's why Netflix and hulu and all these like disimpliates exist Right, you you still consume long form content, right?

[00:51:59] But the issue is like short form a short form content consumer They're trained to look at 60 second clips, right for example, right The transition like you said is there's a lot of friction to go from that

[00:52:11] And they might not even know what a podcast is like for them the perception of visual content Is maybe I have a youtube podcast right and I youtube or a video podcast is very different than maybe uh audio only podcast also

[00:52:23] So, uh, you know, we see it with you know My dad thinks that a podcast is something that I have no idea what it is, right? Like he he sends us the same, you know, we're very proud of him. He's publishing, right?

[00:52:33] But the perception on the product is very different So we have to clearly define well, what is a podcast, right? Or what is a video podcast and then how do you promote that and and I think That education gap, you know in the consumer

[00:52:46] Is very important to consider and I love how you put it like what's the lower friction next step, right? And I highlight putting both here for us to go and revisit, right? Because it's so important and some sometimes we don't we don't think about those things because maybe

[00:53:01] Short form is very hot right now and it's like attracting some eyes Right, it might not be the best medium for you to actually promote the show It might be able it might be able to achieve like brand awareness, right?

[00:53:12] Consistency on other platforms, right be present in those platforms But he might not specifically be the best to go to that like in our example every time we go guest That's you know where we get the most amount of attention for a podcast, right?

[00:53:24] Because podcast listeners listens to podcast So they immediately on their app. They're like, oh my gosh, this is great Like let me go check these guys out But then on social, right, you know, you have the 1% You know transfer rate or 9% transfer rate like No, we don't know

[00:53:39] Yeah, so Jeremy we have a I want to transition to the last question here But before that I'm so curious actually since we started talking about premises and hooks, right? How to present the show my mind went like, huh?

[00:53:54] How would Jeremy present content is profit based on his experience? You know that he's been on the show. So you can riff whether it's good or bad. It's all good You know, I'm curious based on your perception and being on the show now a few times

[00:54:10] How do you think we should present this show to To listeners now that being said the artwork that we had right is this kind of like bright blue and orange

[00:54:21] It says content is profit mindset entrepreneurship and marketing and it has a flipped picture upside down picture of me and my brother Kind of like pointing at the screen When we did that we were like, well, this is different. It will catch people's attention

[00:54:36] It kind of like has work for a little bit. I think you know, it does catches people I was like who are these weirdos that are upside down But if I'm being honest, I 100% believe that it can be

[00:54:47] Way way better and has a have a better premise, right? So I'm curious in your eyes I'm gonna put you 15 seconds on the clock. Let's go Yeah, so I yeah, I think your cover art is great. It definitely makes you look it feels legitimate and professional

[00:55:03] So I don't think there's any issues there Title is also clear and so people know what they're gonna get with the show I think if you're looking at the premise side of things

[00:55:11] Then and well, I mean, this is an interesting conversation because the point of your show is relationship building It's not necessarily meant the primary purposes to attract People out in the world and so in that case like I would perhaps not change anything

[00:55:26] If though you were saying like, okay where the show is is really purely about just attracting new people to the show Then I would definitely look at Shifting up the premise somehow and like let's just like take your existing title here

[00:55:43] I would probably change it at some point if we're gonna go with a different premise but like one of the things that I find is really easy for Juicy premises is just aiming really narrow and usually it's like taking one question

[00:55:54] That you ask somewhere in your show and making the whole show just about that question And you realize like there's almost and you can do this. I put down a note and I'll do a newsletter about this at some point recently

[00:56:05] Like there's this idea in software about like unbundling these like larger products Whereas like a new startup can take like this one thing that maybe like facebook or something has all

[00:56:15] These different features and they're just going to do one of those things really well and better than facebook does And I've started to think about like that for podcasting too Where there may be a show you like on your topic where they have a bunch of questions

[00:56:25] And they have this like one standard question that they they ask regularly And it's like what if we did a whole show where every episode just focused on that one question

[00:56:32] And so with your show I might look at the first thing that comes to mind. I really like Narrow interviews where it's like you actually get into the stories when you just focus on this really small kind of like

[00:56:44] Pinhole almost that you just like view this whole world through this one narrow thing And so I would think about like okay, what could we create a show around On every episode we interview somebody about their like most profitable piece of content

[00:56:57] Like this. Okay. This is an interesting idea So like if this probably means that you would need to get people who have large followings But it's like, okay

[00:57:03] What's the one piece of content that you posted that drove the most sales and it you it could be a sponsored post Or it could be a one email sales email that you sent or this one instagram post that drove signups for something

[00:57:14] And I think like there's probably a lot of interesting stories that you could get into from People who have like million dollars posts down to like hey, this was the first thing that I did It's my most profitable piece of content ever it got me $5,000 in sales

[00:57:26] And it's like what's the story behind that thing? Yeah, and like that's you hear that and you're like, oh, that's really interesting Hmm. I absolutely love that. I think you just gave us the plan for the next three years Well, you know send us a voice. Yeah

[00:57:41] That way there's something I do want to comment on at the very beginning you mentioned, you know We have this platform mainly for the relationship building And yes, we do And it said so maybe your goal is not to build an audience. This is where I see

[00:57:58] The value of still building an audience is because if you get to build an audience you get to Potentially bring better guests on the show right because true You you're delivering value to your guests coming here because obviously you are providing your platform

[00:58:13] Right, you're providing distribution as well. So if your audience grows There's more for the guests more incentive for the guests to come to the show So therefore I think you know that they're kind of like intertwined a little bit

[00:58:26] Yes, you can have one where you don't really care that much on the audience And I think maybe the first couple years that was a little bit of or point It was like, you know, let's not look at this to not get discouraged at all

[00:58:37] Let's just focus on building relationships once we started once we joined HubSpot right on the HubSpot podcast network The premise was really that the fastest fast the fastest path to cash because we we did had a busy way to fit our

[00:58:50] You know the families and so on and grow but then when we go to a point where HubSpot came in Yeah, HubSpot came in so we decided Yeah, and we decided okay. Well, we gotta

[00:58:59] Grow the audience a little bit and then also we see the relationship between audience and better guests, right? So you get to build better relationships, you know get to tap into now new More powerful quote-unquote networks, you know

[00:59:13] And I think it's a it's a win-win situation for everybody, right? It's a win obviously for you as a creator because you're big, you know bringing awesome guests like Jeremy right here It's a win for the guests because now you're exposing them to a whole new audience

[00:59:26] And it's a win for the audience because they get new quality conversations that they get to listen with incredible guests Yeah Yeah, fancy This is so cool Uh, that's where you are now but and I think you did an incredible job with this report

[00:59:47] Thank you for breaking it down with us I think it's so interesting Like you mentioned at the beginning like there's all these other reports that are more like industry reports in general Like for people that are outside of podcasting

[00:59:56] They're like, oh, this is interesting and but then once you're in here, right actually creating be like, how do we actually You know you know Take advantage of this incredible medium apart from their relationships and and start learning about more about it, right?

[01:00:12] And and it's funny because we go to all these events and the conversations evolves around that and you're like And we don't really seem to actually find the answer to the questions that we're trying to ask Like you go to this presentation and it's everything is like

[01:00:25] It looks like there's like a paywall, right in front of our eyes. We're like, but no, but really tell me the thing so Um, I think your report does a really good job. Uh, you know digging deep

[01:00:35] Uh, and a lot of people should go download it. So I'm sure Put the link right below link in the bio in the bio link in the description Look at the description. Yeah, I'm to use now to creating reels and stuff. I link in bio um Jeremy

[01:00:48] Well, I wanted to dive into I said it was going to be a short interview now. We're we're been going for an hour here I don't want to take too much more of your time. You know what time is in barcelona, man? I know

[01:00:58] Oh, I forgot. I forget this is like six seven hours ahead of us So all right to wrap it up because we're already asking in previous episodes Kind of like the question that we ask everybody

[01:01:08] But i'm curious on what have been some of the most either creative or best You know marketing efforts that you've seen some podcasters do And this actually let's rephrase this. What are some of the best marketing? Uh strategies that you've seen on podcasters

[01:01:23] That have increased a month over month growth rate that we were talking at the beginning that you're pretty much using as You know the standard to measure some sort of the success of this podcast, right?

[01:01:34] So what are some of those strategies that rather bring in the 1% that you find out most podcasters have And they can increase that to 5 10% hopefully who knows maybe maybe 100 you go from one listener to listeners 100 growth Yeah, so I think there's you mentioned podcast guesting before

[01:01:55] The two things that come up again and again and again are podcast guesting and cross promotions and collaborations And so I think that those they're Guesting is getting harder. There's more like competition in terms of like hosts get pitched a lot

[01:02:08] Collaborations with other shows in your space or in a jacin spaces are often a really easy pitch And so like this is something that networks do all the time

[01:02:17] And you can set it up for yourself as well pretty easily and most it's it's a clear win-win if you're like targeting correctly And so those can work really well with somewhat minimal effort

[01:02:26] You need to kind of like make your list of people and do a bit of research write your pitches But it's not as hard a sell necessarily as doing a like guesting on a show where people are screening for content quality

[01:02:36] And like are you legit and like yeah, they're probably not going to shout out your show On theirs without doing a bit of background check, but if you can like Prove that you're you know legitimate and have some credibility it should be pretty easy

[01:02:47] So that's like the the low hanging fruit that I think is accessible to everyone It's free takes a bit of time to do but it can lead to significant growth And I think especially like you mentioned before where Like podcast listeners listen to other podcasts

[01:03:02] And so like that's going to be everybody that you're getting in front of there is Aware of podcast and listens to podcasts already. So you're kind of removing one potential source of friction there. That's always called smooth operator You call that I love it. Jeremy. That's awesome

[01:03:19] Uh, yeah, I mean that honestly so cool Like what a good roadmap for people to you know tackle content and this applies for every single platform Same thing like if you are creating reels, how can you collaborate inside of reels?

[01:03:31] It's like with other people that actually consume reels and do that kind of stuff right like youtube same thing But obviously we're very biased podcasting because he has changed our lives and many other people

[01:03:42] So um, if you are looking for a guesting solution, we do have a solution So just send us a dm is actually really cool. We started using it and uh, Super super awesome for you to get on other shows or super duper awesome Prott

[01:03:57] Prott tip if you want for that cross promo like before you even pitch have him on your show have him experience Your your podcast your conversations, right? You're gonna be able to build that relationship way faster

[01:04:08] And then that ask becomes like very very easy. Yeah, Jeremy man. Thank you so much. This has been absolutely amazing I'm thinking here. We're gonna have to bring you every end of year to discuss this You know the following podcast marketing trends

[01:04:23] I'm already committing you to do the next one. So, you know, you better have it next year I'm already committed myself. Let's go. Let's go. We're gonna have to do one episode which is The what is the most profitable content piece that you've ever done?

[01:04:36] Based on your feedback. Yes. Yes. That is so good. That's a good Jeremy Thank you so much anything else you want to share before you head out No, I don't know if we mentioned the link, but it's that podcast marketing trends

[01:04:48] Dot com so easy to find and it's totally you don't need to even sign up for anything It's ungated and so you can access the full report there and if anybody goes through and takes any insights away from it Would love to hear from you. Yes. That's awesome

[01:05:00] You know, you said is a free people can go in and ungated But I will encourage people to sign up to your newsletter because it's absolutely amazing You're on it. You're consistent Um, and it's it's always valuable, right? I think uh scrappy, right the scrappy newsletter

[01:05:17] Yeah, scrappy podcasting newsletter. Yes scrappy podcasting newsletter guys We're gonna leave the link in the description below so make sure you scroll down Tap on that and sign up and support Jeremy Listen to

[01:05:29] Everything he has to say because he lives and breathe this data like he is in it all the time Jeremy, thank you so much. I appreciate you and we'll see you probably on the next live event Yeah, you're everywhere. So we'll see you Next time

[01:05:45] With that, thank you so much for having me. Absolutely With that said thing. Oh no, no that was thank you so much for tuning to the contest profit podcast Go ahead and follow the show in your favorite podcasting platform and on social media at businessco

[01:05:57] That is ronnie jeremy here. Help you move one step closer towards your goal Please don't forget to share this episode and and leave a five-star review. See ya. Bye guys